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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down

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Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970

Topic: Vocal instrument/singing/training/instructors
Posted: June 14 2016 at 04:33

^ That should give me enough assurance that the money and the time didn't go to waste. Thanks for the reply.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - June 14 2016 at 04:35

Star_Song_Age_Less View Drop Down

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Joined: December 08 2014
Location: MA
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Points: 367

Posted: June 14 2016 at 00:52

Dayvenkirq, it sounds like your vocal instructor said almost exactly the same things to you as three over the course of my life have said to me. A couple quick notes to hopefully help clarify some things:

- Yes, definitely master singing from the diaphragm. It produces enormous power and lengthens the time you can hold a note, while supporting your pitch (making it harder for you to fall flat).

- Feeling like you're moving up in the top hat vs. moving down into your diaphragm with pitch: This one is confusing because the answer is actually both. You want to feel like your air column is lengthening with pitch. You need more space the higher you go. So you want to both feel like your air is coming from deeper inside you (meaning closer to your bottom), AND that it is able to reach higher in your head. I will often visualize this as a lengthening of myself, or a rooting of my legs into the ground while my top grows like a tree. It sounds silly, but it can make a huge difference in how you hold yourself, and therefore your sound.

- Organic food... that might be bunk. But there are certain foods to avoid before/during singing, yes, such as coffee.

I've been singing in choirs and such since I was 14 so have had loads of time to find out that most of the time, my teachers were right. Tongue

I hear you on stress/anxiety/depression. That can fricking ruin anything. And it is hard to avoid.

Also, throat singing is awesome.

https://www.facebook.com/JamieKernMusic

BaldFriede View Drop Down

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Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
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Points: 10261

Posted: June 13 2016 at 00:25

I never had any vocal training. But I liked to play with my voice as a kid and make it do all kinds of things. That's how I for example discovered throat singing (also called "overtone singing"). I had no idea what it was called though.

Years later I heard a radio feature about throat singing and immediately realized that was one of the things I had done as a kid. I tried it and found out I still had it in me.

Edited by BaldFriede - June 14 2016 at 04:58

BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.

rogerthat

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Posted: June 12 2016 at 20:05

I actually think it's easier with the American pronunciation of can't. But then there's always the one thing voice teachers do which doesn't make sense. Even I said resting the jaw above when I meant to say resting the tongue, lol.

Dayvenkirq View Drop Down

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Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970

Posted: June 12 2016 at 13:43

rogerthat wrote:

But has she taught you how to keep your tongue rested down below so it doesn't get in the way of your voice?

She did.

rogerthat wrote:

Also don't really see the relevance of accent here. The only time how you pronounce becomes relevant is when you modify vowels for high notes. But again, she may be pushing you to mimic a British accent to discourage you from biting down too heavily on the consonants (in case you do that).

She told me that the British accent is more choral, they don't pronounce "can't" as KEHN-t but as KUHN-t. They are used to resonating more with the "uh" sound then sounding nasal with the "eh" sound. (Already reminds me of Singin' In The Rain, but I digress.)

rogerthat wrote:

In my experience, the first thing you absolutely must master before everything else is singing from the diaphragm. That's the thing that will ultimately protect your voice from damage during the learning and experimentation process. But once you have done that, you can learn to rest the jaw, to raise the soft palate and all the other stuff.

Duly noted. I've been shown some techniques on how to control the airflow and hold my breath.

I've got nothing else to add other than a "thank you" for the timely reply.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - June 12 2016 at 13:44

rogerthat

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Posted: June 12 2016 at 10:17

^^^ I think you can judge whether your instructor's approach works for you based on whether (a) you feel comfortable and (b) you are making progress. If you are doing it right, singing - well at least clean, melodic singing (I don't know about distortion) - shouldn't hurt. If you feel any discomfort in your throat or near the neck, it's not a good sign. Where you SHOULD feel pressure is in the diaphragm. When you are singing with good technique, you will feel the sensation in your diaphragm. Again, if you are not, you are not doing it right. Mind you, the reason you are not doing it right could even be if you are not properly following the instructions of your coach.

One thing I don't completely go along with in the list is re resonating in the mouth rather than the nasal cavity. Even if not EXACTLY the nasal cavity, surely the sound is going to rest somewhere in the space between the upper jaw and the nose the moment you raise the soft palate. Of course, it's entirely possible she decided not to start teaching you to raise the soft palate yet because it's a bit more advanced. But has she taught you how to keep your tongue rested down below so it doesn't get in the way of your voice? Also don't really see the relevance of accent here. The only time how you pronounce becomes relevant is when you modify vowels for high notes. But again, she may be pushing you to mimic a British accent to discourage you from biting down too heavily on the consonants (in case you do that).

You can use free online videos posted by vocal instructors to SUPPLEMENT your personal lessons; it need not be mutually exclusive. I would say try it and see if it works and whether it works depends on whether it feels comfortable. Eric Arceneaux is a good coach among those who have posted their lessons online. This Felicia Ricci also seems to be pretty good. If you are interested in more all out rock singing, then Kevin Richards of Rock The Stage NYC.

In my experience, the first thing you absolutely must master before everything else is singing from the diaphragm. That's the thing that will ultimately protect your voice from damage during the learning and experimentation process. But once you have done that, you can learn to rest the jaw, to raise the soft palate and all the other stuff. I am not a pro but I can hold a tune with ease (not being immodest) and learn songs pretty quickly; have sung in a sort of cultural event in my organisation with about 15 musicians behind me (which is basically a lot of noise to sing over). Haven't worked out fifth octave singing/screaming but can do ok on soft rock/soul ballads.

Edited by rogerthat - June 12 2016 at 10:56

Dayvenkirq View Drop Down

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Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970

Posted: June 12 2016 at 09:42

(Again, cramming keywords into the title so that people can easily find their thread of interest.)

Post here about all things voice, especially singing voice empowerment (though the main reason I started this thread is that I wanted to discuss what vocal instructors teach the right things and what instructors can just be bulls$%tting you. Also, I wanted to get some tips from people who know a thing or two about singing.)

I've had five lessons with a local vocal instructor (for which I paid $300), and we covered the visual, kinesthetic, and hearing-yourself (psychoacoustics or hearing yourself on a recording - not sure; I should have asked) aspects of singing voice empowerment. Basically, what I learned from her is doing the following things:

- straight posture;

- straight chin;

- jaw not moved forward;

- learning to hold your breath;

- breathing air into the diaphragm all around your waist;

- controlling the rate of inhalation/exhalation;

- playing sports because it's supposed to improve your breathing;

- trying to resonate more in the mouth than in the nasal cavity;

- relaxing your tongue, throat, jaw, and lips;

- imagining wearing a top hat, moving up in the hat;

- attempting to sing with a British accent (because it's supposed to be a more choral accent);

- not to worry about lip-rolling (a.k.a. lip-trilling);

- practicing hand gestures when moving up and down in pitch;

- resonating in the front (and the middle) of the mouth;

- avoiding stress/anxiety/depression (I'm having a major problem with that one);

- drinking enough water to keep your vocal chords soft;

- sticking with organic foods (I forgot how food can influence your voice).

The funny thing is: she told me not to think ... or at least not to think too much about what I'm doing. ... Huh.

Then there are people on the Internet (just check out YouTube) who suggest a few things that are opposite of what my instructor told me:

- do not imagine you are moving up; imagine you are moving down as you go up in pitch;

- do practice lip-trilling because that is the thing that will help you hold your breath ... and stretch your vocal range.

Does that mean I should go to different local instructors (real people) to get a better perspective on singing? How can I tell a swindler from the real thing?

Edited by Dayvenkirq - June 25 2016 at 06:27