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Tom Ozric 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
 Topic: Jam BandsPosted: March 29 2016 at 01:52 |
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hieronymous
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: December 27 2012 Location: Oakland, CA Status: Offline Points: 308 |
Posted: March 28 2016 at 22:42 |
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Is there a sticky somewhere that addresses the fundamental aspects of the "progressive rock" genre? I've done a bit of reading, but went through a book purge recently so not sure where that stuff is, or I may even have sold it - I don't care that much re: the defining factors of various genres - I would prefer to listen to music than analyze it or defend the boundaries of this or that genre on an internet forum, but who am I? My opinion matters little, just don't like to see the bands I like get insulted by people that actually haven't bothered to investigate for whatever reason or who think that their opinions somehow define this or that genre.
Anyway, here's my prog/jam bands scorecard (with % of progness): Grateful Dead - 45% (they're actually more prog than many "prog" bands) Allman Bros. Band - 35% Phish - 66% King Crimson - 77% Yes - 98% Genesis - 98% Gong - 33 1/3% Magma - the other 33 1/3% Black Sabbath - 666% Miles Davis - 666% - LIVE EVIL Soft Machine - 33 1/3% Modest Mouse - 66 2/3% (due to the involvement of David Sinclair of Caravan)
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 28 2016 at 02:16 |
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More Donald Trump than trump card. There is a long list of English (and Scottish) bands that would have been added years ago for their progressiveness and ability to mix all kinds of diverse musical ingredients into a progressive and unique sound. The only thing stopping them is they ain't Prog Rock.
If you mix up flour, yeast and water you don't get saltimbocca
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 28 2016 at 01:51 |
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...or not. 
The thread was in the Proto & Related lounge. Now it isn't. Ergo, it moved.     Edited by Dean - March 28 2016 at 02:01 |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13063 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 17:21 |
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I've never been enthralled by the Dead. Individual songs are certainly cool, but overall...meh. And friends telling me over the years, "Oh, but you must see them in concert to get the full effect." If I don't really like the studio albums, why the hell should I care to see them in concert? It's like liver. I don't like it. People say "Oh, but liver is great smothered in ketchup and onions." If you have to bury it in something else to make it palatable, it is not worth it.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 13:21 |
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did I actually ninja someone?...cool!!
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 13:17 |
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^ Nah man, Micky just ninja'd me. I'm glad you have those albums - they certainly have their moments.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20623 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 13:12 |
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AoxomoxoA is my favorite Dead album....and I have both Terrapin and Blues .......never thought of any of them as prog, but I do agree there are some 'proggy' moments going on. I just noticed you were commenting at Micky...sorry about that.  Edited by dr wu23 - March 27 2016 at 13:13 |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 13:05 |
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I'm not a fan at all of them Tom. I did my due dilligence to them many years ago and they simply didn't connect.
I probably haven't heard anything ... literally ANYTHING by them in ..umm.. many many years. I know enough OF them and what drove them musically though to understand that if they were English and didn't have the silly Deadhead subculture preying at their overall legacy than yeah.. the good doctors question would be moot. They would have been included in the site, and seen by people not as a jam band, but for being one of the first and perhaps most important of the progressive wave of music that hit in the late 60's. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 12:59 |
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^ Have you heard Terrapin Station or Blues For Allah ?? They have some truly progressive compositions.
And I've always found Anthem Of The Sun and AoxomoxoA to be more Psych/Country but mind-blowingly Prog at the same time. Live/Dead is one of my faves for Live albums. |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 12:53 |
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oh definitely referring to that...
one could say it was no less progressive in a musical sense than mixing up rock, English folk, jazz or what have you. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20623 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 12:34 |
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I'm not a big fan but I do have some of the early albums and I like them ok... .....so iyo what is 'progressive' about combining country, folk, and blues... and a little jazz? I just don't hear anything 'progressive' in their music unless you are just referring to the fact that they did combine some styles. Deconstruct it for me.  |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 12:17 |
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Jam bands that are truly Prog to me : MUSHROOM and ORESUND SPACE COLLECTIVE.
You can throw in Ozrics and Hidria Spacefolk, though they are more 'composed'. The Grateful Dead are the pinnacle of 'Jam Bands' for me. And what little I've heard of Phish, I don't like. |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 12:17 |
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easy... the Dead. If they had been English they would have been added years ago for their progresiveness and ability to mix all kinds of divere musical ingrediants into a progressive and unique sound. They get a bum wrap for their silly dope smoking fans and their subculture which probably sort of overshadows their unique musical contributions.
Not that I like them.. never been a fan of them.. but it is what it is. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20623 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 12:04 |
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^Yes...... are 'jam bands similar to prog' was the point of the thread. At least that's what the OP wrote.
More interesting talking about ABB imo. Here's a question.....who is more likely to embody 'prog' ......ABB or the Grateful Dead? |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 11:02 |
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sure... if I had not retired they likely would have been added to the database. Years later.. who really cares about (those kind of) additions anymore. Thus the thread serves the purpose the addition might have.. to look deeper at the band than some silly 'southern rock' (which applies more to later groups that were more cultural rather than musically 'southern') label.. or worse jam band label. That was the point of the thread wasn't it.  Edited by micky - March 27 2016 at 11:19 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20623 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 10:47 |
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^Micky said: "One thing our past JRF team and me seemed to want to get people to see. Steely Dan was the first blow, this band probably would have been the next." Not sure what you mean there...can you elaborate..? Referring to Dean's post above...this thread is under general Music Discussion...or am I missing something...? Was it moved already? |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 08:57 |
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It really isn't a out of left field notion. Most people simply enjoy music. Especially of your generation man.. trying to pigeonhole sh*t and attach labels is something my generation sort of grew up with and has been more than fostered by sites like this in which we reveled in our abilities to pound round bands in square holes Musically it fits. As I noted a lot of jazz connouseurs do see it and admire them for it. Perhaps the more so since it isn't the flurrry of a 1000 notes a minute that most associate with jazz rock fusion. One thing our past JRF team and me seemed to want to get people to see. Steely Dan was the first blow, this band probably would have been the next. Besides jazz and blues are two heads of the same coin and no one understood that better than the Allmans or any good self respecting southern musicologist |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 27 2016 at 06:31 |
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If this is merely a Jam Band appreciation thread and not a discussion on the relatedness (or not) of Jam Bands to Progressive Rock then it really ought be moved to the General Music Lounge.
If Betts says that ABB is a prog rock band from the South then my (admittedly limited) knowledge of them is failing to see the connection. While I accept they are not a Southern Rock band and appreciate why they would want to distance themselves from that particular tag, their relationship to the Progressive Rock canon (even once, twice or three times removed) eludes me. A frustration I have when listening to their live performances is when they start jamming the tunes seem to 'regress' (...for want of a better word, hence the irony-quotes, so don't pillory me for that) into well-executed but ultimately 'standard' (...again, for want of a better word) pentatonic soloing. What sounds like "modal" because it seems a bit jazz-like, doesn't appear to actually be "modal" in the truest meaning of the word. Don't get me wrong here - their use of the pentatonic is some of the best there is but it's a tried and tested fail-safe formula not untypical of practically every extended (blues, rock, blues-rock) solo ever played. Also, (for example) what starts out as a rehearsed harmonic solo from two guitarists (while not "Prog" in itself, is rather interesting) isn't carried over into the jam like you see with Zappa and whoever is his 2nd guitarist on the day when they are improvising (counterpoint, harmonic duet, call and response, etc.). I dunno... perhaps I'm missing something here or simply haven't listened to the right examples of their music. |
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20623 |
Posted: March 26 2016 at 23:43 |
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This is a nice piece on the band including their influences, etc....Wiki is not perfect by any means but it's a solid article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Allman_Brothers_Band
I have been listening to ABB since 1969 when I graduated from high school....never saw them as fusion...especially the first 2 albums which rock pretty hard at times (Black Hearted Woman for an example..) and are certainly bluesy through and through.....but their live work which goes into extended jamming and the instrumentals like Elizabeth Reed certainly fit the idea of 'modal and fusion'.....but even so I just don't get that idea that they are a 'jazz fusion' band. They rock too hard and have way too much blues imho. btw....this is the first time I have ever heard anyone discuss them in a fusion manner. None of the people who were into them at college with me or after ever thought of them that way. Just an observation. I do agree somewhat with Betts in saying a progressive rock band from the South......though I notice they ain't on Prog Rock Archives. Edited by dr wu23 - March 26 2016 at 23:58 |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Jam Bands
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Dean wrote:
<span style="line-height: 18.2px;">