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Logan View Drop Down
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Points: 36572 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is the original Prog left-wing?
    Posted: March 16 2016 at 22:56
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

No doubt Robert Wyatt has been mentioned many times, but he's communist. I may have already posted here, but I don't feel like reading back right now, I had a feeling that Kansas would have right wing leanings (though not quite original prog) and saw Livgren is listed as a conservative. Surprise, surprise.


Henry Cow was a communist collective.


Yep, and of course in Art Bears (which formed from Henry Cow) the message is abundantly clear in The World as it is Today.

The RIO movement held socialist philosophies.
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2016 at 21:26
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

No doubt Robert Wyatt has been mentioned many times, but he's communist. I may have already posted here, but I don't feel like reading back right now, I had a feeling that Kansas would have right wing leanings (though not quite original prog) and saw Livgren is listed as a conservative. Surprise, surprise.


Henry Cow was a communist collective.
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Points: 36572 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2016 at 18:30
No doubt Robert Wyatt has been mentioned many times, but he's communist. I may have already posted here, but I don't feel like reading back right now, I had a feeling that Kansas would have right wing leanings (though not quite original prog) and saw Livgren is listed as a conservative. Surprise, surprise.
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Points: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2016 at 18:09
The only overtly political proggers I know of are Roger Waters (Animals, The Wall, The Final Cut) and Neal Peart (Assuming you consider Objectivism a political movement.)
Selling England by the Pound has a conservative bent in the sense Genesis is discussing the decay of English folk culture and the rise of American influence.

Supposedly the Mars Volta have opinions which can be interpreted from their lyrics. Supposedly.

Radiohead has Hail to the Thief, which contains several songs directed at the Bush administration.

Believe it or not, Frank Zappa was a serious fiscal conservative commentator.
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Points: 17854 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2016 at 12:28
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

...
I think we are much better off questioning the state of our system of democracy. For example left-wingers generally support forms of direct democracy as opposed to the representative forms we have in most places.
 
It's a dead end, because no one can (not only) define it, but exemplify anything properly. It's impossible in this day and age, as everyone is an expert and nobody agrees on anything, and there is always 1 cent of a difference between this and that and these and those.
 
Reminds me of my own country after the fascist days of Salazar ... all of a sudden there are 100 political parties, the Christian puddings, the Christian alarmist, the Christian demolitionists,  the Christian Society of the Maniacal Book, and of course at least 15 different Democratic, and another 15 different Republican, and another 15 Socialist this or that ... and ... no one knows what they stand for ... so guess what you got here ... NOTHING! (... and so you know the results in Portugal were not pretty, and the violence was worse!)
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2016 at 09:37
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

it should be no surprise that left-wingers condemn the ideology and phraseology of right-wingers and vice versa, so this is pretty meaningless.

I consider myself to be left-wing, but I try to free myself from such automatisms. and I rather agree with the term anarcho-capitalism. I do however understand the viewpoint of left-wingers.

but if we question the "anarchiness", if you allow me to coin that term, of anarcho-capitalism we also have to question the "democraciness" of modern democracies, or should I say "democrato-capitalism"?

I think we are much better off questioning the state of our system of democracy. For example left-wingers generally support forms of direct democracy as opposed to the representative forms we have in most places.
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Points: 65455 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2016 at 02:42
I read an interesting quote from Robert Downey Jr., presumably a classic Hollywood leftie :

"You can’t go from a $2,000-a-night suite at La Mirage to a penitentiary and really understand it and come out a liberal.  You can’t.  I wouldn’t wish that experience on anyone else, but it was very, very educational for me and has informed my proclivities and politics ever since.”
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2016 at 02:14
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

not true; there is right-wing anarchism as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

That is true, "anarcho"-capitalism exists, but apart from the name it has little to do with anarchism. As far as I know every leftist school of thought condemns it for its advocacy of capitalism, which they see as coercive and fundamentally hierarchical, which is completely at odds with anarchism. Proudhon, the first person to label himself an anarchist as far as I know, famously said "Property is theft!" Anarcho-capitalism however depends on the existence of private property. There are forms of anti-capitalist free market anarchism, such as mutualism, but as a general rule leftists disagree vehemently on the ancap label.

it should be no surprise that left-wingers condemn the ideology and phraseology of right-wingers and vice versa, so this is pretty meaningless.

I consider myself to be left-wing, but I try to free myself from such automatisms. and I rather agree with the term anarcho-capitalism. I do however understand the viewpoint of left-wingers.

but if we question the "anarchiness", if you allow me to coin that term, of anarcho-capitalism we also have to question the "democraciness" of modern democracies, or should I say "democrato-capitalism"?


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Points: 17854 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 22:31
Hi,

I really recommend folks spend some time reading the "Eurock" thing by Archie Patterson. It goes through the very early days of what some music that became known as progressive, however, it was not the only "style" that did so, and many of these were also a part of a theatrical tradition.

I think that we can all agree if one person can play this or that, they also have the right to say this or that with it, and sometimes right and left is not even a discussion. But, it obviously makes for an incredible amount of opinions ... though I wish that more of these had a historical perspective on it, as things were very different in 1968 and 1969 than they are today, where no one gives a cahoot. The music we discuss stood out ... for a very good reason, and I think that Jimi's version is definitely left minded (literally!) while others were definitely different and in the other direction ... you could say that Woodstock was all left minded!

Try "Volunteers of America" and "Foreign Son" ... just for a taste! Brutal in many ways!


Edited by moshkito - February 29 2016 at 22:31
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 17:55
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

not true; there is right-wing anarchism as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

That is true, "anarcho"-capitalism exists, but apart from the name it has little to do with anarchism. As far as I know every leftist school of thought condemns it for its advocacy of capitalism, which they see as coercive and fundamentally hierarchical, which is completely at odds with anarchism. Proudhon, the first person to label himself an anarchist as far as I know, famously said "Property is theft!" Anarcho-capitalism however depends on the existence of private property. There are forms of anti-capitalist free market anarchism, such as mutualism, but as a general rule leftists disagree vehemently on the ancap label.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 14:52
not true; there is right-wing anarchism as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 13:07
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

eEarly Krautrock was anarchic, but with a left leaning.

Well anarchism has always been a far left ideology.

As far as the discussion goes, I think the author died a long time ago. Interpretations and intentions both exist and don't have to be the same, and the creator has no control over anything other than what they create. Criticism is a natural part of that and can influence the creators to any degree imaginable. A funnier example is the fact that when the Dead Kennedy's started noticing neo-nazis joining their fandom they made and released a song called Nazi Punks f**k Off.
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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 09:24
Of course, everyone who listened to Hawkwind's "Urban Guerilla" went and blew up high street banks as well..... ;-)

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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 09:23
This is indeed true. See the evil influence it had ? ;-)

That was the commune, of course. ;-)

Point was, of course, not everyone who listened to Amon Duul did join Baader Meinhof. Although history would have been much more interesting if they did. ;-)



Edited by Davesax1965 - February 29 2016 at 09:24

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Points: 10266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 04:54
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

I don't think many Amon Duul albums resulted in great masses of people joining Baader Meinhof.

Well, some members of the Baader-Meinhof gang lived in the Amon Düül commune for some time.


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 04:12
PS Hi Paragraph, no, I applied the principles of Wittgenstein to the argument. "If you are not a musician, informing other musicians (or assuming they're all motivated by fame, sex, drugs etc" is "something you cannot speak of". ;-)

Perhaps this comes across incorrectly, but I think - honestly - that proper art is down to the artist to produce and should not be lead by an audience. Anything where an audience can tell an artist what he should be producing to keep them amused stops becoming art and becomes "product". I'd like to think we're grown up enough here to appreciate art and not product.

Not being nasty, honestly. I am going to apologise and say yes, I should have thought "is a review useful for other listeners ? " - and I'm going to cautiously agree there, yes it can be. So I'll shut up on that one and apologies. ;-)

Is the original prog political ? Yes, it was a product of the times. Proper UK punk rock followed along much the same lines - 60's protest music, ditto. Music does not exist in a vacuum. You can argue that any US music which espouses the "American Dream" is also political. However, I'd rather listen to the music than sign up for the politics, of course. I don't think many Amon Duul albums resulted in great masses of people joining Baader Meinhof. Although a lot of people signed up for "radical chic" and gave it vocal support. More a lifestyle thing. ;-)



Edited by Davesax1965 - February 29 2016 at 04:18

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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 04:07
Whether the audience likes it, hates it or is indifferent about it is irrelevant to a proper musician. Otherwise they produce product and not music. ;-) Agreed. 

Please don't get me wrong, here, I'd like to have a sensible discussion about criticism of music, honestly. Music is traditionally supposed to be one of the most difficult arts media to criticise: we all know what a good painting looks like and we can tell whether or not a novel is worth reading. Music is more subtle and difficult to describe and delineate as the reviewers are most usually not musicians: neither are the readers of the reviews, of course. Same to an extent with art and literature, but they have more points of reference.

It also brings up the question - "Is music art of product ? " - are you playing to an audience to entice them to buy, in which case, you're more likely to pay attention to reviews (and write formula music) or do you write the music first and let it find it's own level ?

I've had some cracking reviews. I've had some ludicrous ones written by people who just don't have a clue. The problem with the internet is that anyone can write a review and that raises questions about how valid that review is. 

I always remember an example of Seamus Heaney, a poet, being asked by an examining board if one of his poems could be used for an exam question over here in the UK. He said fine, so long as I get to sit the exam. 

"What is the poet trying to say ? " was the question. 
Heaney wrote "I don't honestly know. Maybe he was feeling a bit depressed that day." He failed the exam. ;-)

I don't honestly like telling people how to interpret my music. It's their choice and everyone will hear it differently. The same should apply to critics: don't think that your criticism informs or influences a musician. That's like standing behind Monet and saying "Paint that duck blue. Go on. Blue. "  

However, and it IS a good point, it might be useful for reviews to pass some opinion on to other audience members. But. Depends on the quality of the review, doesn't it ? Are most people qualified and subjective ?? 


Edited by Davesax1965 - February 29 2016 at 04:19

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Points: 100 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 03:43
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Wait a sec, PA reviews are useful for other members of the audience (at best) in either guiding them as to whether the album would be worth their time (if their tastes correspond to the reviewer's in some aspects) or in just simply giving them a good time reading about an album that both reader and reviewer enjoy.  What professional musician is really influenced by something written in a review?  I'd certainly hope none of my favourite musicians take anything written in reviews too seriously!  The usefulness of audience criticism is restricted to the audience itself.  And it may possibly influence the views of budding musicians in their formative years.  But I doubt it exerts any significant influence on those musicians who are actually making the albums that we listen to.  For if it did, they would be paralysed, given the rich diversity of opinion on PA or anywhere else on the net or on print.
 
I was referring to his statement that went along the lines of "music should not be dissected". It can be dissected and it is often done so by the audience, as you pointed out. Whether musicians should care, like it or hate it is irrelevant.
What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2016 at 02:17
eEarly Krautrock was anarchic, but with a left leaning. political orientation did however not find a way into their music or lyrics. it was just expressed in the way they lived (usually in communes).

an exception was Floh de Cologne; their lyrics were explicitly left-wing, but not anarchic.

the most important left-wing German band was however not prog. it was Ton, Steine, Scherben (German for "Clay, Stones, Shards"). they had two songs which became slogans of the German political protest scene of the late 60s, "Macht kaputt was euch kaputt macht" ("Destroy what destroys you") and "Keine Macht für Niemand" ("No Power For No-One"). you could find these slogans on every wall in the late 60s and early 70s

here are the two songs in the above order:


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Points: 65455 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2016 at 19:10
^ I have to agree.
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