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Topic ClosedDream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2014 at 13:37
Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

If they were innovators, what did they innovate? But, if they were imitators, who did they imitate? Those are the questions.
If this is a philosophical question then I'll have to consult my wife. Every day she keeps telling me how smart she is! But seriously, for an example of DT's imitation, I think back to the opening track from the second disc of the Six Degrees album titled Overture. If I remember correctly, it started off with a Moody Blues style Day's Of Future Passed album orchestral piece, morphed into short loud bass/drum/guitar section, resumed with synthesized strings that resembled the Eldorado overture from ELO before Petrucci caps off the song with one of his best Brian May impersonations. Stunningly beautiful piece but hardly original sounding in style. Right now I can't think of anything original by them but the day's not over yet.

Edited by SteveG - June 09 2014 at 19:48
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infandous View Drop Down
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Points: 2447 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2014 at 13:37
I hope those ridiculous "reviews" were posted for humor, as I don't really see the relevance here.........one uneducated listeners opinion is about as good as any other I suppose.

However, as to the question at hand.........my personal opinion, since I first heard Images and Words in the mid-90's is that they were mostly imitators.  Some Rush riffs and drumming, some Pink Floyd atmosphere, some 70's fusion type instrumental workouts, 80's big hair band vocals, all mashed together with the "innovation" of metal distortion and double bass drumming.

On the other hand, nobody had really done that up to that point (though it could be argued that Metallica created far more interesting "progressive metal" music, back in the 80's, than DT ever came up with later on).

I don't think you can really overstate how important DT was (and maybe still is) to modern prog, though.  A lot of people on this site, and that I've met at prog festivals over the years, were turned onto prog rock via DT.  So whether or not they are originals or imitators (like most bands, I think they are somewhere in between), they certainly have had popularity and exposure well beyond the vast majority of most modern prog bands.  Regardless of my personal opinion of them, they must have done something right.


Edited by infandous - June 09 2014 at 13:38
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Toaster Mantis View Drop Down
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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2014 at 12:35
This reviewer at RateYourMusic really, really hates 'em.

On Images and Words....

Originally posted by Mister_Blonde Mister_Blonde wrote:

liked this when I was fifteen, on the general grounds that I was a dipsh*t teenager anyway. But this does have a few songs I still rather like, for nostalgic reasons. But it's not that good of an album, mostly because - as is the norm for this band - Dream Theater's softer moments are basically sh*t. It's because they're the most f**king obvious and sentimental schlock ever. Surrounded is like a sh*tty lifetime movie turned into a ballad. It's the worst and i'm one of those dumbf**ks who's suffered through Metropolis II multiple times.

But hey Pull Me Under is still a cool song! I mean it rides its hooks for f**king ever but at least it has some life and energy to it. It's a memorable song and the outro is legitimately boss as f**k. But what marrs the rest is what's been their bread and butter since forever - a ton of flashy soloing to cover up the fact that their songwriting has always been predictable verse-chorus. By which I really mean, verse-chorus-verse-chorus-extended f**king soloing that doesn't tie back into the rest appropriately, etc.

I've beaten the point into the ground a lot over the years, but Dream Theater really are exactly that compared to basically any of their prog rock influences. But still, there's actually some okay riffs/melodies on here. It's mediocre stuff, but hey, at least it feels like it f**king ends at some point unlike Metropolis II. I guess that's something.


On Metropolis Pt. 2...

Originally posted by Mister_Blonde Mister_Blonde wrote:

Everything that is horrible about progressive metal rolled up into one giant sh*tfest of an album. I almost want to call it the Tales of Topographic Oceans of metal music, but that's not even fair because Yes at least came up with like one or two okay moments? This is awful on every level, not even in a way where it's kinda funny. Everything about it is horrifically overwrought, from the ham-handed balladic sections to the 'look am we're so proggy admire these multi minute solos'

The difference between the best prog rock and even prog metal bands, and Dream Theater, is that the former actually knew how to use technique in a way that worked in the context of their composition. DT didn't, and to be boot they're arguably more formulaic than any of the prog or metal bands they're influenced by. Just putrid.


On Train of Thought...

Originally posted by Mister_Blonde Mister_Blonde wrote:

This album is 'dark' in about the same way a Lifetime special is dark.

Seriously, this album trying be all HEAVY, SONNNNNN is f**king hilarious. It's impossible to buy it because most of these riffs are just complete trash. It's a bunch of bad chugging, and what's more it's punchless on top of it. Inspired by 80's Metallica, you say? HA! Anyway, the rest of this is pretty standard Dream Theater, IE really bland and formulaic songs with a bunch of irritating soloing in the middle of these songs. No, they're not bad because they're solos, they're bad because they're not much more than an excuse to show off chops instead of being meaningfully integrated into the songs.  This band's worst sin is how f**king formulaic and predictable most of their songs are - which, by the way, is the exact opposite of what a the majority of the prog rock bands they were inspired by were.

I'd despise prog too if this band was all I knew of it
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Points: 17847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2014 at 12:29
Well at some point it seems all bands efforts move sideways when they get in a rut.....IMO right now DT are in a rut, for sure the last two albums are nothing ground breaking from an innovation view. When I think about their early albums like Scenes, SDoIT, Awake those were some pretty innovative albums and a lot of new prog/rock/metal bands acknowledge them as innovators.

Imitators, not sure as most bands do imitate the bands they get inspiration from, maybe not flown blown imitation but there are bits and pcs mixed in usually. With DT you can hear Rush, Yes, Genesis, PF, Metallica, Iron Maiden......but DT sounds like DT at least to me.

The key to me for DT is will they get out of this rut and create some new music to get excited about, in prog years they are not that old to learn something new or actually create a great album again. Portnoy is the only one who since the breakup has actually made some pretty good music albeit as a session drummer on some, but still, his work with Morse, Transatlantic and Winery Dogs is pretty damn good.

All this IMO


Edited by Catcher10 - June 09 2014 at 12:34
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Mirror Image View Drop Down
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Points: 2111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2014 at 11:45
If they were innovators, what did they innovate? But, if they were imitators, who did they imitate? Those are the questions.
“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2014 at 10:43







Dream Theater: Innovators or imitators? When I think of Prog rock I think of bands on a quest to constantly break conventions and move music forward. As much as I enjoy some of the output from Dream Theater, I see them (like some other later day prog artists) as bands that wear their influences so proudly on their sleeves that they  produce music that can only move sideways. So are Dream Theater innovators or merely imatators?










Edited by SteveG - June 10 2014 at 10:24
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