Why don't most people love our beloved music? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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rogerthat

Prog Reviewer

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Posted: May 16 2011 at 11:09

Alitare wrote:

How can you scientifically prove that the music produced by a toddler wailing on a toy piano is 'bad'? Can you do this with charts, graphs, and infallible data? If we cannot prove inherent goodness or badness, then how can music be universally measurable?

That's pretty simple. Simply banging keys on a supposed musical instrument without making a tune in rhythm is not music, it's just a bunch of sounds (ergo, the question of good or bad does not arise!). We cannot go so far as to even tamper with the bare basic tenets of music under the pretext of upholding subjectivity. I am, by the way, distinguishing between what is atonal or dissonant and what is plainly un-musical and that difference exists objectively, it is NOT the figment of my imagination. I am not a musicologist so how it can be established is music or not is not for me to answer (I don't believe that that necessarily means there is no distinction between music and all sounds per se).

By the way, chimps also don't drive cars or construct buildings to live in or work at. Humans are different from other living creatures in many ways, so they do perceive things that those do not. And that is not a subjective perception. Perceiving music as opposed to the sound of a truck engine is real (and please don't give me an example of how the sound of a vehicle was woven into music because that's not my point at all) and objective. What resides in the realm of our subjective perception is how much we like the music.

Edited by rogerthat - May 16 2011 at 11:13

rogerthat

Prog Reviewer

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Posted: May 16 2011 at 11:01

I am quite familiar, to say the least, with backpedalling on the net but I don't dislike it any less for it. So, I am going to reproduce a portion of the opening post which, I am sorry, sets the tone of further discussion on the topic. Is it just an honest question about why a lot of people don't like prog? I don't think so, not if you read the below in conjunction with the words "our beloved music".

DarHobo wrote:

Many people I know simply say prog "sounds bad" but in reality, those same people have no understanding of music, composition, techniques, and performance. Its the same people who listen to and praise the generic mainstream super corporate pop/rap stars who diss prog, yet as I get older I realize sadly this is a large percentage of people.

Oh well, all in all I'm just glad there is a forum here of like minded individuals here who appreciate music as an art form, and not as a fashion trend or disposable market product!

I am really sorry we prog heads let you down but we are NOT a brotherhood. We just happen to listen to a lot of diverse music that is lumped in one basket for some reason.

Alitare

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Posted: May 16 2011 at 11:01

wilmon91 wrote:

Alitare wrote:

I totally disagree - then it doesn't matter what you do. If you randomly hit notes on the piano, and the guitarist does the same, and everything is out of tune, and the vocalist doesn't even try to sing with feeling or with any effort. How would that sound? Bad? If music has no intrinsic worth, how can you say it's bad?

"all arrangements of sound are equally bad or good" - that's what Henry was saying. The way its stated is absurd to me. Saying "Everything is subjective" is another thing - but I wouldn't agree with that either. It's an oversimplification of a subject which is very philosophically challenging.

Alitare wrote:

Thinking one form of music is superior to another is completely a self-delusion, and a work of subjective, circumstantial feelings.

Yeah. Comparing the qualities of entire forms of music is very generalizing. It's easier to say that "I like this song more than that song".

Alitare wrote:

You simply cannot scientifically prove one band or genre is superior to any other. Once you're able to quantify and correlate 'goodness', I'll be on board.

I don't know why anyone would even want to do that. That's just dull . Regarding peoples opinions though, nothing is carved in stone. I take that into account. When someone listens to something contemporary, I may suspect that this person won't likely listen to that music a few years from that point. If the whole point is to "stay current", then the music itself is not all that matters

However, I don't see were the original poster says that prog is better than pop. It simply wasn't the topic as far as I know.

Again, music has no universal value. If it did, rocks, trees, chimpanzees, and aquatic life forms would be lined up to go see the next Rihanna concert, but they aren't. We humans are the only ones to do what we with art on this floating orb. It is a biased perspective. How can you scientifically prove that the music produced by a toddler wailing on a toy piano is 'bad'? Can you do this with charts, graphs, and infallible data? If we cannot prove inherent goodness or badness, then how can music be universally measurable? If one song is not better than any other song, then the song has no objective worth. When he said 'no universal worth', he wasn't saying music is worthless. He was saying that it can never be bad or good, it only exists. Gee, I thought this concept was easier to comprehend than this. Tongue

Vibrationbaby View Drop Down

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Posted: May 16 2011 at 10:52

I think it's the elves & sh*t. Yeah the elves & sh*t. Also the wizards, dragons and magic kingdoms. Scares the living crap out of normal people.

rogerthat

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Posted: May 16 2011 at 10:47

wilmon91 wrote:

It seems that many misses the point of the first post. The way I see it, the point was not to say that "pop, or rap music sucks". He explained a situation were someone told him that the music he played sucks.

You can be more or less offended by such a remark, especially if you're listening to some artist you have been a fan of for many years.

By the reasoning of some of the posters in this thread (quoted above) it seems perfectly okay for people to say that prog sucks, and openly ridicule it, but it's not okay for a prog-fan to have some negative opinions about mainstream music - for example, saying that "this song sounds like a million other songs" would be veeeeery offending to the mainstream audience. What's up with that?

What his true feelings for pop, rap are seem to be borne out of what he felt like saying apparently to that guy, but didn't. And I would absolutely tell somebody who tried to make me listen to a dull, by the numbers pop song that sorry, this sounded boring to me and I am not interested. It does not bother me in the least if they call me elitist or whatever. Music fans are constantly caught in launching into character assassinations simply because someone doesn't like their favourite music (oh, the shock, the horror!) and I can't be bothered, really. Now, bear in mind that to say that a particular pop song is dull is not the same thing as saying all pop music sucks and people who listen to it are not endowed with the superior intelligence that the Lord Almighty bestowed to prog heads. If somebody gets all butthurt about even saying that I called the song they wanted me to listen to boring, sorry, that can't be helped. It's just my opinion and you asked for it by making me listen to it. If your feelings about your favourite songs are so precious and fragile, don't subject yourself to further torture by sharing it with many people which will lead to more heartburn.

wilmon91 wrote:

Why would anyone not want to share his music experiences with other people, why would he want to listen only for himself ?

Uh, I don't know, excessive fragmentation of Western music has made listeners too judgmental and close minded about music as such. So I wouldn't readily engage in a conversation about music unless I sense that there's some common ground between me and the other person. Now because I do like good 'non-prog' music, I find it more fruitful to talk about THAT to others without getting into the subject of prog and possibly letting sparks fly.

It took me a good deal of time to realize that syncopation in rap is a lot of fun when you come to think of it. I still don't find it interesting for my taste because I want melody to move and things per se to develop quickly and good rhythms are ok for a while, no more. Maybe I will find something to like in rap too in future, but that's not relevant here. In hindsight, I think the stereotypes defined rap in my eyes and I did not cut it some slack when I should have. If it took me a long time to develop a more judicious perspective of rap, I would not be surprised that people who listen mainly to mainstream pop/rock music would buy into the stereotypes of prog and be dismissive of it. Whether or not it is objectively justified is beside the point, it is just human tendency.

Don't talk about prog to someone you don't know is a proghead or who you don't think will like it, as simple. I don't drink and if somebody forced a glass of beer down my throat (as opposed to persuasion or cajoling, which is understandable), I would feel very offended. Playing music that is not universally liked such that others can hear is similar to that, imo. You are forcing your tastes on somebody else's ears then, so don't expect a warm response unless, by a sheer miracle, you happen to stumble on a prog listener.

Edited by rogerthat - May 16 2011 at 10:53

wilmon91

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Posted: May 16 2011 at 10:10

Alitare wrote:

Thinking one form of music is superior to another is completely a self-delusion, and a work of subjective, circumstantial feelings.

Yeah. Comparing the qualities of entire forms of music is very generalizing. It's easier to say that "I like this song more than that song".

Alitare wrote:

You simply cannot scientifically prove one band or genre is superior to any other. Once you're able to quantify and correlate 'goodness', I'll be on board.

However, I don't see were the original poster says that prog is better than pop. It simply wasn't the topic as far as I know.

last.fm

DarHobo

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Posted: May 16 2011 at 09:57

Wilmon 91 is right. I think some posting in this thread are saying I feel progressive rock is superior as a music genre to pop/rap? No... I was just explaining a specific instance that made me question why many people (usually the type that listen to pop/rap) do not like prog. I just wanted to hear other members experiences and inputs with this.

Overall, from good responses in this thread, i've gathered progressive music is very much an acquired taste, doesn't sound 'safe' and familiar, so is inherently "strange" and offputting for many people. AKA Music best to be played when the objective is to really focus on what is going on- not as background music or "doing things music" . I understand people like different forms of music for different reasons, and there is nothing wrong with pop, I love 80's synth pop and new wave just as I love prog so don't think I am bashing here, its just an observation.

Alitare

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Posted: May 16 2011 at 09:29

wilmon91 wrote:

Henry Plainview wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

My dad literally fell asleep halfway through listening to my first album. Ouch

This is the first valid complaint in the thread.

rogerthat wrote:

I think your comment first of all has a disrespectful tone, so I don't see why your co workers should have respected your music.

Henry Plainview wrote:

The problem is when people think there's something wrong with this and the music they listen to. "Serious music fans" like pop music too.

Alitare wrote:

My feelings reside with Henry's here. Why do people think prog is superior to pop?

Alitare wrote:

You aren't right or wrong in thinking the way you do. But what you do believe betrays a severe lack of comprehension regarding psychology, sociology, blahblahblah, etc. etc.

Mosis wrote:

probably because of arrogant, condescending fans like the op

prog music is just music. it doesn't make you smarter for liking it, nor does liking pop make you dumber.

You can be more or less offended by such a remark, especially if you're listening to some artist you have been a fan of for many years.

Henry Plainview wrote:

Why do people have to care about the same music you do?

Why would anyone not want to share his music experiences with other people, why would he want to listen only for himself ?

Henry Plainview wrote:

Music has no inherent meaning, all arrangements of sound are equally bad or good.

..............welll that's an interesting, very personal opinion.

I think it doesn't have to do with "prog". I'm by the way not a "prog fan", and the issue for me is not "defending prog". The thing is that anything outside mainstream, or music reflecting the current times , will often be questioned. You don't have to play "prog" , you just have to play something "different". The other day I was listening to baltic folk radio. If I'd played it in a public place, of course it would have gotten some remarks, like "this is absurd" or something. And that can be understandable, it can be very odd, I'm not used to a lot of that stuff myself. It's about the way we deal with foreign sounds we aren't accustomed to.

And mainstream music, because it is played everywhere in different places or situations, everyone is accustomed to it. Hearing a new song with mainstream characteristics won't make anyone startled, because they recognize all it's traits, so it's "safe".

The unfortunate thing is how little room there is for alternative sounds in open, public places. It's as if it's forbidden, and when you play something, for instance "prog", it's like you break a golden rule. No such music in public places!

Is that good or bad? What is the topic here, is it that pop music sucks!? Read the name of the thread?

But what Henry said wasn't a personal opinion. Music truly has absolutely no intrinsic worth. What he's saying is that only we humans subjectively appreciate music. It doesn't affect stones and twigs in that manner. Thinking one form of music is superior to another is completely a self-delusion, and a work of subjective, circumstantial feelings. He wasn't saying he doesn't like or dislike any music. Of course he has feelings as do we all. He wasn't transferring his chemical reactions into an opinion at that time. You simply cannot scientifically prove one band or genre is superior to any other. Once you're able to quantify and correlate 'goodness', I'll be on board.

Personally, I detest Rush as much as I adore Jethro Tull. I detest Lady Ga Ga as much as I adore Electric Light Orchestra. I'm here because I like to argue with folks.

Garden of Dreams View Drop Down

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Posted: May 16 2011 at 09:27

A lot of people do not understand nor want to understand the music complexities in prog. Not to say that is a bad thing necessarily, its just musical taste. I found prog because of my discontent with metal and wanted music that had more meaning to me. It is very easily the same with other people and other music. Also, some people just like music as background so whatever music is playing is unimportant. Again, there is nothing wrong with that. I like the fact that prog isn't mainstream. It might lose its magic if it was mainstream. But it might not.

wilmon91

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Posted: May 16 2011 at 08:43