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Blacksword 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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 Posted: November 18 2010 at 05:16 |
 Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries. |
Yes Kennedy said that. Quite odd to think about. When put in perspective, goverments seem to have the power to manipulate human nature, the survival instinct, and just regular old common sense. For instance, why we think it's ok that we are in the middle of a war where we drop depleted uranium on little brown people, with a civilian casualty count that goes beyond belief. It's not ok, it's wrong, and no one seems to care.. |
You'd be suprised how many people do care about such things, but the tragedy is that they are powerless to do anything about it. One million people marched through London in protest about the plans to go into Iraq. There were protests in every city, but our leaders ignored us. Since then there have been firther protests, albeit smaller in scale, but still big, organised by the Stop the war Coalition, and mainstream media has not reported them. They are clearly under instruction not to draw attention to anti war groups.
In short people care, but their governments ignore them. |
I know there's people out there. I'm mostly just talking about allot of my peers. Being nineteen I can't even get people to think about things like this.And, from my experience, the mainstream media doesn't report anything. Private journalism is something I've tried to follow. Although sometimes the story's are very hard to read. |
I know exactly what you mean, when you say your peers don't care or don't seem to care. It frustrates me sometimes that my friends will only go so far in any discussion about politics, when the discussion becomes philisophical, they are out of their depth straight away. Most believe what they see on the teatime news, not because they intentionally swallow anything dished up to them by the mainstream media, but simply because it's easier than to question what they're told.
A note of caution about independent news media. There is no such thing as 'un-biased' news, mainstream or otherwise. All news organisations have an agenda of somekind, even if they claim to be impartial. That includes everything from the BBC to Prisonplanet.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Billy Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Austin
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 05:02 |
Blacksword wrote:
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries. |
Yes Kennedy said that. Quite odd to think about. When put in perspective, goverments seem to have the power to manipulate human nature, the survival instinct, and just regular old common sense. For instance, why we think it's ok that we are in the middle of a war where we drop depleted uranium on little brown people, with a civilian casualty count that goes beyond belief. It's not ok, it's wrong, and no one seems to care.. |
You'd be suprised how many people do care about such things, but the tragedy is that they are powerless to do anything about it. One million people marched through London in protest about the plans to go into Iraq. There were protests in every city, but our leaders ignored us. Since then there have been firther protests, albeit smaller in scale, but still big, organised by the Stop the war Coalition, and mainstream media has not reported them. They are clearly under instruction not to draw attention to anti war groups.
In short people care, but their governments ignore them. |
I know there's people out there. I'm mostly just talking about allot of my peers. Being nineteen I can't even get people to think about things like this. And, from my experience, the mainstream media doesn't report anything. Private journalism is something I've tried to follow. Although sometimes the story's are very hard to read.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:55 |
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Textbook wrote:
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries. |
Yes Kennedy said that. Quite odd to think about. When put in perspective, goverments seem to have the power to manipulate human nature, the survival instinct, and just regular old common sense. For instance, why we think it's ok that we are in the middle of a war where we drop depleted uranium on little brown people, with a civilian casualty count that goes beyond belief. It's not ok, it's wrong, and no one seems to care.. |
You'd be suprised how many people do care about such things, but the tragedy is that they are powerless to do anything about it. One million people marched through London in protest about the plans to go into Iraq. There were protests in every city, but our leaders ignored us. Since then there have been firther protests, albeit smaller in scale, but still big, organised by the Stop the war Coalition, and mainstream media has not reported them. They are clearly under instruction not to draw attention to anti war groups.
In short people care, but their governments ignore them.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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caretaker
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 19 2010
Location: united states
Status: Offline
Points: 288
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:50 |
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After careful thought and since the question was "would you?" and not "will you?", I'll say yes. But then, I'm a Libertarian.
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Billy Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Austin
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:48 |
Textbook wrote:
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries. |
Yes Kennedy said that. Quite odd to think about. When put in perspective, goverments seem to have the power to manipulate human nature, the survival instinct, and just regular old common sense. For instance, why we think it's ok that we are in the middle of a war where we drop depleted uranium on little brown people, with a civilian casualty count that goes beyond belief. It's not ok, it's wrong, and no one seems to care..
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:44 |
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
^ I think there's a fine line between perspective and right and wrong.
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It's the old 'freedom fighter' vs 'Terrorist' debate.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:38 |
Textbook wrote:
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries. |
In some circles it is still considered 'un-patriotic' to question the actions of your government.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Billy Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Austin
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:35 |
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^ I think there's a fine line between perspective and right and wrong.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:35 |
Billy: Exactly my point. That attitude sounds insane now but 100 years ago it was the norm.
Even though this is much more recent than that, remember "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? I have a feeling you might. That was endlessly repeated and trumpeted as some great quote of the ages. But if we look at it, what it means is "Give your life to the collective, drone. Your individual welfare is meaningless in comparison to our political agenda." However the government made it some sort of golden auraed maxim because it promoted just doing whatever the hell they said, foremost among those things being putting yourself in deadly situations so they could stay in cozy offices in Washington screwing the secretaries.
Edited by Textbook - November 18 2010 at 04:35
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:28 |
Textbook wrote:
By "for your country" I mean because the government asks so, reasons irrelevant. This may seem like an idiotic prospect to people today- I'm not going to die just because a politician requests it- but not that long ago you would have found plenty of people who felt it was their solemn duty to leap under a passing bus if their queen or president requested it. What I'm saying is that feeling has deteriorated (well not everywhere, it's very much alive in China for example) and now people are saying either "no" or "yes but only if there was some sort of threat" which actually means no because you're reacting to the threat, not the will of the country's leaders. |
Yes, fair point. In that case: No I would not die for my country just because my government asked me to.
More poeple are starting to realise that it is not all about good guys vs bad guys. It's just about different perspectives.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Billy Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Austin
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:24 |
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If anyone jumps in front a bus because someone just says, well, I don't know what to say about that. So I guess the sane answer is no, I wouldn't kill myself for no cause whatsoever.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 04:18 |
By "for your country" I mean because the government asks so, reasons irrelevant. This may seem like an idiotic prospect to people today- I'm not going to die just because a politician requests it- but not that long ago you would have found plenty of people who felt it was their solemn duty to leap under a passing bus if their queen or president requested it. What I'm saying is that feeling has deteriorated (well not everywhere, it's very much alive in China for example) and now people are saying either "no" or "yes but only if there was some sort of threat" which actually means no because you're reacting to the threat, not the will of the country's leaders.
Edited by Textbook - November 18 2010 at 04:18
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Billy Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Austin
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 03:45 |
Blacksword wrote:
It's a complex and philisophically broad question.
If my country was being invaded, and I was called upon to defend it, I guess I would. If I was conscripted to fight in some oil war somewhere in a desert, I would rather top myself, than give my life to that cause.
Another point of philosophical discussion would be, would you die protecting yourself against your own government? |
Very well put. If there was a reason to put my life on the line than yes. I can say one thing, I wouldn't even kill for my country anymore, as there is no reason that are soldiers and there soldiers, and most sickeningly there civilians have to die. Of course I'm talking about the war we are currently in.
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Billy Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2010
Location: Austin
Status: Offline
Points: 1505
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 03:41 |
JJLehto wrote:
I can't imagine Benkato dying for his country.
Mainly for reasons Billy Pilgrim put so elegantly 
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Who is Benkato?
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 02:58 |
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It's a complex and philisophically broad question.
If my country was being invaded, and I was called upon to defend it, I guess I would. If I was conscripted to fight in some oil war somewhere in a desert, I would rather top myself, than give my life to that cause.
Another point of philosophical discussion would be, would you die protecting yourself against your own government?
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 02 2008
Location: Going Bananas
Status: Offline
Points: 24293
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 02:57 |
I say NO! If there ever had been a day in my lifetime on which my country was worth dying for, it must have been long ago. But this country has prostituted itself to the European occupant, who tightens its grip on our throats every day.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 02:45 |
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Depends, I wouldn't take a certain pill just because my country asks so, but I would go to war to defend it (with the possibility of getting killed). The question is not well put.
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Any Colour You Like
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 01:33 |
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Mmm, philosophical debate.
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 01:02 |
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goddam hippies
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clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: November 18 2010 at 00:59 |
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This is philosophical question that can not be answered with a simple answer.
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Would You Die For Your Country?
