New decade, end of the CD?

"The use of tube for better mids and highs

This is a fallacy and "better" is a subjective observation - the objective observation is that valve amplifiers are "different".

Valve amplifiers add distortion in both the voltage and the time domain, this results in increased harmonic distortion and non-linear frequency response (caused predominately by the output transformer but also by the valve voltage-to-voltage transfer characteristic - the creation of the pentode valve was an attempt to overcome these characteristics in triodes but even that was not 100% successful). This distortion is more prevalent (ie noticable) at mid and higher frequencies, also the construction of the output transformer and the poor impedance matching at low frequencies makes valve amplifiers less "good" for low frequencies (through poor damping factor) even though the resulting mids can be described as "warmer" (poor low frequency response should make the mids "brighter", not "warmer") - this dichotomy is caused by the increase in even-harmonics in the distorted signal (resulting in warm flute-like tones) at the mid and high frequecies (this distortion is still present at low frequecies but we are less able to notice it). Many people like this kind of distortion but that does not make it better - valve amplifiers are not "fidelity" - they do not reproduce the sound that the record producer recorded in the studio so are not hi-fi (high-fidelity) by definition. Solid-state amplifiers out perform valves in every respect and create a near-perfect audio sound stage - unfortunately many people do not like this 100% transparency but prefer the colourisation created by the imperfect valve amplifier.

It is possible to recreate the "valve-sound" in a solid state amplifier using complex filtering to dynamically alter the colouration of the audio spectrum - this is not common in hi-fi amplifiers because filters are considered to be a "no-no" in this environment, however in guitar amplifiers "valve modelling" is common and can be achived easily using digital processing techniques. Note that here the DSP adds colour to a colourless (ie transparent) amplifier - it adds distortion. If anyone likes that distortion best then they still cannot claim that a valve amp is better than a solid state amp, it's just "different" and certainly cannot be called "transparent".



Valve is more transparent in the mid/highs than solid state: you'll hear extreme highs details that you'll not hear with solid state.

This is a good illustration of the difference between theories and
experiment.

Anyway, if, according to you, one can't claim that something sounds better than something else, you should not discuss anymore about Hifi.


Edited by oliverstoned - September 12 2011 at 09:34

oliverstoned wrote: Dean wrote: Affidavits are unnecessary. I have said before (when Oliver offered to let me listen to his portable set up if I journeyed to Paris), I'm sure his system sounds wonderful.   That isn't the point Mike and I are making - I believe his system sounded just as good "out-of-the-box", without the superfluous audiophilist modifications and tweaks, without the expensive cabling and redundant anti-vibration additions. Considering that you claim that the followings points cannot produce an audible difference

I do not make these claims - I provided scientific counter arguments to your unscientific claims. I have never claimed that valve amplifiers do not produce an audible difference - quite the contary - I have stated they do make an audible difference, but not the one you make.

Edited by Dean - September 11 2011 at 10:58

The T wrote: oliverstoned wrote:   Not sure what you allude to with the volume knob? Well, the links are gone now but apparently not long ago wooden volume knobs were sold that were supposed to improve the audio experience due to lower vibration and distortion

http://boingboing.net/2005/11/07/astronomically-overp.html 

Dean wrote: Affidavits are unnecessary. I have said before (when Oliver offered to let me listen to his portable set up if I journeyed to Paris), I'm sure his system sounds wonderful. That isn't the point Mike and I are making - I believe his system sounded just as good "out-of-the-box", without the superfluous audiophilist modifications and tweaks, without the expensive cabling and redundant anti-vibration additions.

Considering that you claim that the followings points cannot produce an audible difference


The use of tube for better mids and highs

The use of separate drive/converter digital set up

The use of separate preamp/amp stages

Power optimization

Vibration control optimization

Cabling and contacts


and so many other things

My system is made up of all this so why would it sound better
than any "normal" system like yours? I run modest speakers so it doesn't comes from it, and i used to own 3 pairs of first price Mission
Loudspeakers before and my system was already like it is today in term of electronics and was already extraordinary sounding.

So, what would make my home system better than an ordinary one?

And it does, thanks to all the things quoted up.


Jean Marie would tell that it's day and night, no comparison with anything else, first time in his life he listen to such sound.
And everybody reacts the same to my system.


That's empiric science.




Edited by oliverstoned - September 09 2011 at 14:04

oliverstoned wrote:   Not sure what you allude to with the volume knob?

Edited by The T - September 07 2011 at 17:07

digital thing lacks one aspect - getting in closer touch with performer
When I go to the concert, and I like the music, I usually buy CD , and get autographs of musician(s) on the booklet.
Some of them write not just the signature, but also some warm words.. that's so nice to have and collect such things

How would you imagine getting autograph on a flash memory card with mp3 ?


Edited by awaken77 - September 07 2011 at 07:44

I discovered my old portable Cd player (which I not used for 2 years), and revived it.
it was not functional due to oxidized battery contacts - I cleaned it, and now enjoying 2 Nathan Mahl CDs all day

Push the walls means creating a soundscape, a sonic space....imho

Edited by jean-marie - September 07 2011 at 04:28

Dean wrote: Affidavits are unnecessary. I have said before (when Oliver offered to let me listen to his portable set up if I journeyed to Paris), I'm sure his system sounds wonderful. That isn't the point Mike and I are making - I believe his system sounded just as good "out-of-the-box", without the superfluous audiophilist modifications and tweaks, without the expensive cabling and redundant anti-vibration additions. "Pushing Walls" just means loud, and that is a testament to the Loudspeakers and their designer, not to the amp or any cabling or any tweaking a home-based amateur does after purchasing them - any power amp can make speakers sound loud using any cable you care to buy, it's the ability of the speakers themselves to handle that power across the audio spectrum at significant volume without distortion or inducing other audio artifacts that determines the capability of a system to "push walls". Similarly his portable set-up would sound just as good without the ALO interconnect and it would sound just as good without the Red Wine *modification* to the iPlod - where he has improved it is by adding the external Headphone Amp so that it can drive his HD25-1's (because a iPlod cannot drive 65ohms even with the Red Wine modification). And here the make and construction of the headphone amp is immaterial, it just needs to be designed to drive medium impedance headphones adequately, and the simplest home-construction headphone amp will do that for a fraction of the price of the RSA Mustang P51 ...out of interest, the Grado RA1 headphone amp that retails for £400 in the UK is made from £5 worth of average quality components and can be built into an empty tic-tac box - what you are paying for is the name and a badly made mahogany box. Similarly I can build a copy of the Mustang P51 out of the components in my junk box that would sound exactly the same as the $250 RSA version - it just wouldn't look as nice because I can't make the pretty anodised aluminium case on my kitchen table.

There you're totally wrong. My system is a choosed combination of devices and accessories which are essential for the whole result. I don't talk about tubes, you can't have the fantastic highs i've got without tubes. Without the cables, filters, vib cancelling devices, the system doesn't work at all.

Sean will come and hear all that and i'll give him a set of cones so he'll be abble to try quietly on his own system and compare.

And no,"push the walls" doesn't mean loud, not but not at all...

The magic of my system, among others, is the use of 200w solid state to get real extreme low and low coupled with 30w tube to do all the rest (low medium, medium, highs and extreme highs) the part of the sonic spectrum we're more sensitive to). This is a kind of bi amplification.



Edited by oliverstoned - September 07 2011 at 03:36

I want Oliver, our audiophile-in-campus, to tell me with all honesty, lest lightning might fall on his pushing-walls system, if he has used audiophile tweaks like the legendary green marker for cds or the volume knobs or the cable lifters/raisers. I want to hear it from somebody that has actually bought such............. devices.