| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Ozark Soundscape 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2014
Location: not here
Status: Offline
Points: 2360
|
 Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:35 |
|
No.
|
 |
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65249
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:30 |
 ExittheLemming wrote:
All said and done, Punk was more about a confrontational take on activism than any enduring musical legacy. It's year zero Maoist fervour was valuable in as much as it prepared the soil for the real musical seeds to take root and bloom into the bouquet of Post Punk (probably my favourite time period in music) |
Nice.
|
|
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
|
ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:09 |
As to who the 'original' punks might have been in the UK (or if anyone really cares as Dean has already stated, their music had all the staying power of a soap bubble) Maybe: Slaughter & the Dogs, Chelsea (circa Right to Work), Siouxsie & the Banshees (the unsigned incarnation with Sid Vicious on drums), the Damned (circa New Rose), Stiff Little Fingers, the Adverts, UK Subs, the Saints (albeit relocated from Australia), Discharge, Generation X (with Billy Idol), Buzzcocks (circa Orgasm Addict), the Subway Sect and erm...the Cortinas?! All were unstintingly s.h.i.t.e and that's probably also true for their US equivalents. (that's NOT the likes of the Stooges, MC5, VU etc as I can see the vestiges of their influence in all rock bands) I mean audible mucus like the Dead Boys, the Ramones, the Misfits, the Lurkers, Black Flag etc All said and done, Punk was more about a confrontational take on activism than any enduring musical legacy. It's year zero Maoist fervour was valuable in as much as it prepared the soil for the real musical seeds to bloom into the fragrant bouquet of Post Punk (probably my favourite time period in music) I've posted this quote before but just for the sake of clarity:
Tom Verlaine felt Television were not part of any so-called punk movement. "We felt outside of that," he says. "I don't think any of those bands (Patti Smith, Blondie, Talking Heads, Voidoids) were punk and everybody knows they're not punk so it's kind of a dead issue. Nobody calls those bands punk, outside of maybe the Ramones."
Edited by ExittheLemming - March 06 2015 at 21:47
|
|
LearsFool
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8642
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 20:29 |
Dean wrote:
There is a difference between real punks and those who originated punk. Television were instrumental in the formation of the New York punk scene but the music they played and especially what they recorded on their début album was not Real Punk, it wasn't even Punk:
wikipedia wrote:
According to Rolling Stone magazine, Marquee Moon is a post-punk album, while Jason Heller of The A.V. Club described it as an "elegantly jagged art-punk opus". Robert Christgau felt it was more of a rock record because of Television's formal and technical abilities as musicians: "it wasn't punk. Its intensity wasn't manic; it didn't come in spurts." Both sides of the album begin with three shorter, hook-driven songs, which Stylus Magazine's Evan Chakroff said veer between progressive rock and post-punk styles. The title track and "Torn Curtain" are longer and more jam-oriented. Verlaine later said in an interview for Select magazine, "As peculiar as it sounds, I've always thought that we were a pop band. You know, I always thought Marquee Moon was a bunch of cool singles. And then I'd realise, Christ, [the title track] is ten minutes long. With two guitar solos." |
What is Real Punk about that? |
Marquee Moon definitely gives label-happy types headaches; while Television started off playing punk back in the early '70's - Richard Hell being in the band at the time, no less - for the debut the guitar lines instead borrowed from the kind of interplay typically inherent in jazz and lacked the particular power chords punk almost always thrives on.
So, rather than being punk or any kind of ___-punk, you could probably call it some experimental alt rock.
|
|
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 20:18 |
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Post punk, eh? Ok, that makes sense. But who were the real Punks then? And what became of them? |
Well, it certainly wasn't The Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Dammed, The Ramones or Television. |
Ok, Guv'nor, I give up. Ello,Ello. |
Yup. You are getting real good at quoting posts. Shame they do not illustrate the point you are trying to make. That quote does not say, or even fncking imply, that I saw "bands like Television as followers and not the Punk originators."
There is a difference between real punks and those who originated punk. Television were instrumental in the formation of the New York punk scene but the music they played and especially what they recorded on their début album was not Real Punk, it wasn't even Punk:
wikipedia wrote:
According to Rolling Stone magazine, Marquee Moon is a post-punk album, while Jason Heller of The A.V. Club described it as an "elegantly jagged art-punk opus". Robert Christgau felt it was more of a rock record because of Television's formal and technical abilities as musicians: "it wasn't punk. Its intensity wasn't manic; it didn't come in spurts." Both sides of the album begin with three shorter, hook-driven songs, which Stylus Magazine's Evan Chakroff said veer between progressive rock and post-punk styles. The title track and "Torn Curtain" are longer and more jam-oriented. Verlaine later said in an interview for Select magazine, "As peculiar as it sounds, I've always thought that we were a pop band. You know, I always thought Marquee Moon was a bunch of cool singles. And then I'd realise, Christ, [the title track] is ten minutes long. With two guitar solos." |
What is Real Punk about that?
|
|
What?
|
|
SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 19:55 |
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Post punk, eh? Ok, that makes sense. But who were the real Punks then? And what became of them? |
Well, it certainly wasn't The Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Dammed, The Ramones or Television.
|
Ok, Guv'nor, I give up then. 'Ello, 'Ello, 'Ello!
Edited by SteveG - March 06 2015 at 20:17
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 18:11 |
SteveG wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I thought the predecessors to punk were more half the 1960s psychedelic garage rock scene that was later anthologized on the Nuggets compilation by Patti Smith cohort Lenny Kaye, the other half being the early-1970s glam rock movement's rawer end. (New York Dolls, Slade, The Sweet etc) |
You are correct, but Dean sees bands like Television as followers and not the Punk originators. |
No he doesn't.
|
|
What?
|
|
CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 17:08 |
SteveG wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I thought the predecessors to punk were more half the 1960s psychedelic garage rock scene that was later anthologized on the Nuggets compilation by Patti Smith cohort Lenny Kaye, the other half being the early-1970s glam rock movement's rawer end. (New York Dolls, Slade, The Sweet etc) |
You are correct, but Dean sees bands like Television as followers and not the Punk originators. So, the question now is: Who were these 'originators' then? |
The Modern Lovers and the original Suicide, both back in 1970. That or Dick Dale.
|
|
SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:33 |
dr wu23 wrote:
I never saw punk as an extension of anything but more as a rebellious juvenile delinquent version of basic rock and roll.
|
That's only because you are a man of good taste, Doc. 
|
|
SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:32 |
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I thought the predecessors to punk were more half the 1960s psychedelic garage rock scene that was later anthologized on the Nuggets compilation by Patti Smith cohort Lenny Kaye, the other half being the early-1970s glam rock movement's rawer end. (New York Dolls, Slade, The Sweet etc) |
You are correct, but Dean sees bands like Television as followers and not the Punk originators. So, the question now is: Who were these 'originators' then?
|
|
dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20623
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:17 |
I never saw punk as an extension of anything but more as a rebellious juvenile delinquent version of basic rock and roll.
|
|
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
|
|
Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:13 |
|
I thought the predecessors to punk were more half the 1960s psychedelic garage rock scene that was later anthologized on the Nuggets compilation by Patti Smith cohort Lenny Kaye, the other half being the early-1970s glam rock movement's rawer end. (New York Dolls, Slade, The Sweet etc)
|
|
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
|
|
SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 13:41 |
The Truth wrote:
Dean wrote:
The Truth wrote:
I find it interesting to consider that the first British album to call itself "punk" (Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance) was also very much a progressive rock album. I also think a lot of proto-punk, a-la The Velvet Underground/Lou Reed ventures into avant territory which while not necessarily progressive rock, there was some overlap. |
Hmm. I suspect that Hammill was using the 'juvenile delinquent' meaning of the term, regarding Rikki Nadir as a street punk making music. Rael in Lamb Lies Down On Broadway was a street punk, as were the rival gangs in West Side Story. |
I don't know, it seems as though tracks like the title track, Nobody's Business and Birthday Special certainly have punk-rock leanings. I think it was a little more than just the persona. |
Punk rock leanings or American style Garage rock leanings?
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 13:17 |
The Truth wrote:
Dean wrote:
The Truth wrote:
I find it interesting to consider that the first British album to call itself "punk" (Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance) was also very much a progressive rock album. I also think a lot of proto-punk, a-la The Velvet Underground/Lou Reed ventures into avant territory which while not necessarily progressive rock, there was some overlap. |
Hmm. I suspect that Hammill was using the 'juvenile delinquent' meaning of the term, regarding Rikki Nadir as a street punk making music. Rael in Lamb Lies Down On Broadway was a street punk, as were the rival gangs in West Side Story. |
I don't know, it seems as though tracks like the title track, Nobody's Business and Birthday Special certainly have punk-rock leanings. I think it was a little more than just the persona. |
Hmm... it's been a while since I played the album but as I recall there is a lot more going on in those tracks than three-chord riffing. He may have been aware of the New York punk scene that was emerging at the time, though I'm not sure how or why he could have. But you could be right.
|
|
What?
|
|
The Truth
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 19 2009
Location: Kansas
Status: Offline
Points: 21795
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:57 |
Dean wrote:
The Truth wrote:
I find it interesting to consider that the first British album to call itself "punk" (Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance) was also very much a progressive rock album. I also think a lot of proto-punk, a-la The Velvet Underground/Lou Reed ventures into avant territory which while not necessarily progressive rock, there was some overlap. |
Hmm. I suspect that Hammill was using the 'juvenile delinquent' meaning of the term, regarding Rikki Nadir as a street punk making music. Rael in Lamb Lies Down On Broadway was a street punk, as were the rival gangs in West Side Story. |
I don't know, it seems as though tracks like the title track, Nobody's Business and Birthday Special certainly have punk-rock leanings. I think it was a little more than just the persona.
|
|
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:51 |
Svetonio wrote:
Yes, of course that Punk was turn into Post-Punk so fast (imho, it was happen with London Calling the album which had a similar role as Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band toward 60s English rock) but that way of life, that movement, the kids who were following that punk fashion, it's all were still on the streets for years latter.
|
This is not about fashion, it's about music. Kate Moss wearing a punky t-shirt is NOT Punk Rock. ffs.
|
|
What?
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:50 |
Svetonio wrote:
In my country it was a big youth movement, and I saw the same thing in such a big centres as Paris and New York as well - even more than in London (maybe because the Punk origins were imported from USA to UK actually).
|
It is hard to see what effect the punk scene in Paris or the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had on Progressive Rock and vice versa, regardless of how big it was in those respective countries.
Yup, Punk was imported into the UK from New York. No one can deny that fact, and in fact, no one is claiming that Punk was invented in the UK, if it had been we would have probably called it Yob Rock.
The back-to-basics reaction to Prog in the UK prior to that was Pub Rock, as typified by Bees Make Honey, Dr Feelgood, The Stranglers, The 101ers, Ducks Deluxe et al. This was itself influenced by garage rock from the USA and British R&B of the 1960s. Wilko Johnson's staccato guitar playing was in turn influential on Tom Verlaine's guitar style... nothing is created in a vacuum.
The Punk scene in the UK and the music it spurned was radically different to that of the USA, just as British Psych developed in ways that USA Psych failed to do. Parisian Punk... whatever did that achieve?
|
|
What?
|
|
Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:37 |
tamijo wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
tamijo wrote:
This is the kind of debate that is very hard, because there is no objective defination to what is punk, proto punk, post punk ect. And there can be many different answers that could be subjectively correct. Based on where you live, what sources you had access to, and how you define your criteria.The Punk "movement" was not big is my homeland, but it was not only "punks" that did listen to the music.Few liked the Pistols, but there was a lot of people that liked The Clash, basicly because the music was better, and where I come is was quite normal that you like both Peter Gabriel, The Clash, Floyd Kate B, ect. |
In my country it was a big youth movement, and I saw the same thing in such a big centres as Paris and New York as well - even more than in London (maybe because the Punk origins were imported from USA to UK actually).
|
In Copenhagen i think it was not much more than a few 100 punks in late 76-78, but is grew bigger when they (we) started Squatting, but that was in the 80's, and its was more "Cure and U2" than punk music, (but there was some punky music played) |
Yes, of course that Punk was turn into Post-Punk so fast (imho, it was happen with London Calling the album which had a similar role as Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band toward 60s English rock) but that way of life, that movement, the kids who were following that punk fashion, it's all were still on the streets for years latter.
Edited by Svetonio - March 06 2015 at 12:38
|
|
Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:26 |
tamijo wrote:
To answer the OP, there was a lot of diffrent music, not just Prog and Punk, (...) |
Of course, there was Funk, Disco, Disco-Funk, Funk-Rock, Pop Rock, Glam Rock, Adult Oriented Rock, Hard Rock and so on, but it was especially Prog that symbolized something for punks that they should be against. Well, it's not so difficult to imagine why 
|
|
tamijo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287
|
Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:13 |
Svetonio wrote:
tamijo wrote:
This is the kind of debate that is very hard, because there is no objective defination to what is punk, proto punk, post punk ect. And there can be many different answers that could be subjectively correct. Based on where you live, what sources you had access to, and how you define your criteria.The Punk "movement" was not big is my homeland, but it was not only "punks" that did listen to the music.Few liked the Pistols, but there was a lot of people that liked The Clash, basicly because the music was better, and where I come is was quite normal that you like both Peter Gabriel, The Clash, Floyd Kate B, ect. |
In my country it was a big youth movement, and I saw the same thing in such a big centres as Paris and New York as well - even more than in London (maybe because the Punk origins were imported from USA to UK actually).
|
In Copenhagen i think it was not much more than a few 100 punks in late 76-78, but is grew bigger when they (we) started Squatting, but that was in the 80's, and its was more "Cure and U2" than punk music, (but there was some punky music played)
|
|
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Punk: A Logical Extension of Prog?
