Dean wrote: HolyMoly wrote: BaldJean wrote: having to categorize everything is the eternal flaw of human beings Sorry to take this out of context, but it's a very astute observation.  Our tendency to classify and break things up into components is not the only way of looking at the world, yet we often take it for granted that nature is really that way. We categorise and name things so we can communicate with each other. So classifications are merely points of common reference that allow us to recognise that we are talking about the same thing. This isn't a flaw, quite the opposite, it is a survival trait, without which we'd have died-out from eating plants that no one had bothered to previously classify as poisonous. Where it all goes wrong is when we get overly concerned by being pedantically exact about it. Sometimes it's okay to call spiders "insects" when there is no need to be taxonomically precise, just as it is perfectly fine to use the word "bugs" to mean all manner of creepy-crawlies and not just those that are insects of the suborder Heteroptera.  Saying that Itchycock (or whatever) was the first prog album is merely a point of reference so we all know what we are talking about. When we pedantically pick over it with a pseudo-musicological taxonomy it loses that peg-in-the-ground relationship and when approached like that very few (if any) albums would survive such close scrutiny. So it's semi-arbitrary consensus (by some undeclared common agreement) that this particular album is chosen to be "the first Prog album", and there is nothing wrong with that, any one of a number of albums could have been picked, it doesn't actually change anything. Itchycock suddenly doesn't become any easier or harder to listen to, it doesn't instantly become an album that you are not permitted to like or dislike; and so its status as an album is not affected by whatever label you give it.

exactly my point, Dean

Yeah the whole prog thing has nothing to do with the atmosphere of the music... or does it?

BaldJean wrote: I am completely aware that this post is extremely heretical, and I fully expect to be subjected to the Spanish inquisition for it

The lady doth protest too much methinks. Yes, it's a very patchy album that contains some inordinately lengthy stoned d.i.c.k.i.n.g. about, some hippy gothic histrionics (right up your generously proportioned psychedelic alley I would have thought) and some unimpeachably

sublime moments of pure unadulterated Prog fresh from the source. I guess that picking this album apart in 2014 might be compared to Jeremy Clarkson marking the Model T Ford down for the lack of a drinks holder, GPS and airbags? Yeah, nothing beats engineered controversy.

BaldJean wrote: having to categorize everything is the eternal flaw of human beings

Sorry to take this out of context, but it's a very astute observation.  Our tendency to classify and break things up into components is not the only way of looking at the world, yet we often take it for granted that nature is really that way.

The fact that you think complex rhythms and changing time signatures are the main elements defining progressive rock shows that you have no reasonable ground to stand on with your assertions.

Also, Monster Movie is totally the first prog album.

Not sure how often I've actually heard In the Court of the Crimson King mentioned as the first progressive rock LP, thought that honour most often went to either Days of Future Passed (which I unfortunately haven't heard) or Freak Out. (whose case I'm not entirely convinced of)

BaldJean wrote: lazland wrote: The only shot I would fire is that we will once again have the interminable "what was the first true prog album" debate, a question which is incapable of being answered fully, and is one we have had over and over (and over) again. that's exactly what I stated. there is no such thing. having to categorize everything is the eternal flaw of human beings. that was the original sin when we ate from the tree of knowledge

The only shot I would fire is that we will once again have the interminable "what was the first true prog album" debate, a question which is incapable of being answered fully, and is one we have had over and over (and over) again.

"In the Course of the Crimson King" is considered to be the first full-fledged prog album by many people. let me first make it clear that I don't believe such a claim can be made by any album. prog was, like any other musical form, something that gradually developed, and it makes no sense at  all to define a clear point for saying "this is where it all starts".

that being said let's have a closer look at ITCOTCK track by track:

"21st Century Schizoid Man" has all the trademarks  we expect from a prog song, even if it keeps the traditional song structure. there are unusual time signatures and lots of complicated stuff going  on. conclusion: a full-fledged prog song.

"I Talk to the Wind" is most definitely a pop song. a beautiful one with a nice instrumental midsection, but nevertheless a pop song. not prog at all

"Epitaph" really is a tearjerker sung by a crooner, including the funeral march in the middle. the heavy use of mellotron only serves to emphasize the tearjerker qualities of that song. not prog at all.

"Moonchild" can be divided into two parts, a song part and an experimental part that hardly anyone listens to; it is usually skipped (not by me though). what is being  done in the instrumental section is in my opinion trying to express the song lyrics word for word with instruments only, and it succeeds in this regard. this second part is highly prog; the first part however is a simple pop song. verdict: prog, but since the second part is skipped by most people this has to be taken with a grain of salt. the first part is not prog at all.

"In the Court of the Crimson King". this song  has all  the hallmarks of true prog, though it has to be noted that this song still more or less keeps the traditional song structure.

so what do we have in the whole? a pop song, a tearjerker, two prog songs and one half-and-half (which taken as a whole has to be considered fully prog). now decide for yourself: is that enough  to make up a full-fledged prog album?

oh, and so you don't get me wrong: I like the album  very much, and all of it, including "Moonchild". I just don't think it's status as "first full-fledged prog album" is justified. and don't forget the  statement I made in the second sentence of this post.

I am completely aware that this post is extremely heretical, and I fully expect to be subjected to the Spanish inquisition for it


Edited by BaldJean - March 07 2014 at 06:34