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BaldJean 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
 Posted: February 22 2014 at 19:15 |
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I am of the completely different opinion. if the second were true it would reduce "prog" to "symphonic prog". also I don't see any classical influence, not even in symphonic prog (with a few exceptions). where is the polyphony which is so typical for classical music? there hardly is any in prog music. and the harmonic progression is simple compared to the harmonic progression in classical music. no, the influence of classical music on prog is vastly overrated |
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member 
VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7265 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 17:25 |
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Fantastic discussion! I agree with Steve on this, great music is great music! The punk years evolved into New Wave, and some very exciting things happened....bands embraced the spontaneous nature of punk, added some excellent instrumental talent, and pushed the envelope of prog beyond moaning Mellotrons and snappy Rickenbacker basses! Eno was an early pioneer in this, recruiting Bob Fripp for early projects such as "Here Come the Warm Jets," which I love! When Fripp came out with "Exposure" and then "The League of Gentlemen," I was hooked! (I was lucky to meet Bob during these years). Bob's evolutionary work from these albums contributed greatly to Discipline era King Crimson, where he recruited Talking Heads alum Adrian Belew to contribute. Other artists who plunged into this direction included David Bowie, Gabriel and many more. I miss that era a great deal, the energy was amazing! In Chicago, we had numerous bands that blended blazing fusion instrumentals with punk-rock rhythm and energy, it was remarkable to participate in and behold. Globally, we had many fine bands such as Big Country, Gang of Four etc. who added their own elements to this burgeoning movement. RIP Bob Casale of DEVO!
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17511 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 14:27 |
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This is so bizarre.
In general terms, Syd is quite literate, and I always thought that his ideas for "Astronomy Domine" and "Interstellar Overdrive" were much more with it, than any words that were ever said or mentioned. The guitar touch was like a foreign sounding ring tone from outer space, for example, and the IDEA fit nicely. Same thing for the plane that landed upside down, since it obviously crashed, but for us stonies, it was a very psychedelic way of saying it?
That's totally bizarre. Syd is not stupid, and he is more of a writer than anything else. You could even say that he was also quite educated, though that is not exactly a measure of the ability to create, and write so much stuff, but he had a knack for satire that most of us can't even appreciate or understand. I think we need to listen to Lucifer Sam again, to make sure we can see obviously intelligent writing, instead of anything else.
Not all of the psychedelic stuff was stupid. And in my book, it could be said that a lot of the punk stuff was not as intelligent, or as well defined. Iggy Pop in his early days had absolutely nothing going for him except a young guy in very good physical condition that every girl/groupie and guy wanted to go to bed with, and he went wild on stage which only made it much more so. But saying that a lot of those pieces of music were important, or had something to say, is a bit more than is really necessary. It's nice to visit, and see the wildness, no question there, and the total lack of self-consciousness, but applying anything else to it, might be a stretch.
I call it an "experience", and sometimes they are good and valuable, but not always necessary or meaningful, specially when looked at through the eyes of history.
Edited by moshkito - February 22 2014 at 14:55 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17511 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 14:25 |
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Hi,
I'm not sure this is totally right, or that I believe it. You can go back to 1971 and 1972, I things like New York Dolls, or Iggy and the Stooges, and I think that is "punk" as much as anything else. Punk, as we know it, might have been a media reaction in England, but probably less of a factor in America, where NY has its own music, LA has its own music, Nashville has its own music, SF has its own music, Chicago has its own music, and New Orleans has its own music. Folks in many of these places didn't give a damn about Iggy or the Dolls, os any kind of punk, but LA and NY went googoogahgah over it! I, sometimes think that the reaction is more our own, than the reviewers. We look at the listing of stuff and think ... ohh more of these ... less of those ... ahhh, there was a reaction, and progressive music stopped being this or that. I seriously doubt, and Dean says the same thing, that the music ever died or was not alive and well. All we have to do is look at Peter Hammill and Van der Graaf Generator, and dude ... 45 years later!!!! That ought to show you something, though you might say that some of the albums in the 80's from Peter of the band, were not your favorites, but it didn't die simply because they are not your preference.
The only "difference" I see is that I did not hear screaming in classical music, or any of the music that has been recorded since the 20's and the 30's, and when I hear a couple of places in some operas, it would be more than justified, which kinda suggests that there was some editing along the way, and some composer probably already had screaming in it, that was edited out as ungentlemanly, and unmusical! The content itself, or the 3 notes, is not as valuable an assumption at all, specially when the 20th century "classical" music went on to "minimalism" and music that was considered more simplistic than the more obviously composed sounter parts. So, in that sense, "punk" did something quite right! But it could be generalised that progressive/art gave away to punk, and ohhh my gawd, it right out and gave way to new age, or should we say rap, which for a long time was very similar to a lot of punk lyrically, though even generalizing that is not a good idea. There are, and were, some excellent poets doing rap. From one excess point to the other! Some how, even coming from me, that just sounds silly.
A lot of the media reminds me of the old days in high school and how the paper was so poor and cheap and vanilla (specially in the late 60's at a school like ours in Madison, WI), and intentionally ignored all the political and social relevance of their students. and to show you how vindictive some of these folks can be, our graduating class is the only one that is missing a reunion opportunity, even if it were with another class, which kinda tell you what some of us thought of those (obviously fake) virgins, and their total dislike for us hippies, radicals and soccer players (NO KIDDING!), because a few of us were from foreign countries! We could not get into the journalism side of things, because the teacher in charge did not like us, and was a narc and a disrespecting man, that would not stand with us when we asked for the flag to be lowered when Dr. Martin Luther King was shot. Like a symbol of peace and love is just another radical ideal, when in fact all it was hiding was his racism! We couldn't expose this. But it did get a principal fired and three of those bad teachers were not there the following year thanks to the help we got from two folks that became a part of the City Council in the fall, and we helped them get there! The City Council was not happy with the Board of Education for ignoring "facts" about abuse and the lack of acceptance for intelligent discussion.
By the time I found these, in 1972 in Los Angeles, I bought my first copy of Melody Maker, and I think that was the one with the washing machine music comment on Tangerine Dream. And it was within that month that we found a whole bunch of things on the Harvest label (The cereal breakfast "ingredients") that I went after religiously, and had almost all of them in my collection at one time or antoher. Not always great, but always VERY different. And it was a that time, that I noticed that none of these got a review, and when they did get a blurb, it was one that basically ignored the band and their music, similar to the example Dean gave on that reviewer. By that time, Guy Guden and I were already friends, and were listening to a heck of a lot of music, although it is likely that he had more of an ear for some of it than I did, specially the oddball stuff, some of which threw me for a loop at the start. But I went for every used copy that I could find of any LP that was on Harvest, and we found many gems in there, and for me, Kevin Ayers and Roy Harper are still the best. And Melody Maker or NME didn't care. They were always putting the famous this or that or their new fad beatoff on the cover and kissing as$ like crazy. After all, the job of the media is to support the company, right? So why would they say something good about something that they do not benefit from? Think about it! It's about the company line, or you don't have a job, right? So you still want the media to kiss you and your band, regardless? Edited by moshkito - February 22 2014 at 15:20 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 14:11 |
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To be honest I've never met that many people under the age of 40 who ever gave the entire "punk vs. prog" narrative any validity, or at least invested it with a level of serious business beyond just liking one genre but not the other. Both had a common ancestor in 1960s psychedelia, the former through the "garage rock" scene chronicled by Nuggets and the latter through the UK psych scene picking up stronger classical influences. With a fair amount of overlap in common frames of reference between the two, both musical and extramusical... notice for instance where some of the more introverted post-punk bands started going for inspiration later on. (e. g. Wire, The Soft Boys, The Teardrop Explodes and Julian Cope in general - the spirit of Syd Barrett hangs over all of them!)
As for the possibility of whether it even is possible to integrate classical compositional principles into rock songwriting on more than a superficial level... I guess that's much more relevant to the original post than the last many ones. Most of the criticism of progressive rock I've encountered seems to focus on the resulting music either failing to do anything interesting with the neoclassical elements, or failing on the premises of rock music on its own. Thing is that judgement is brought down not on the genre as a whole but on individual artists or even specific recordings, at least in the two examples I'm most familiar with - id est aforementioned Jim Derogatis book and Mark Prindle's review website. (check out his takes on ELP, King Crimson, The Moody Blues and Yes - he finds the first two hit-and-miss but quite likes the latter two) Edited by Toaster Mantis - February 22 2014 at 14:26 |
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17511 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 13:33 |
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Hi,
Sometimes I ask myself that question and I tend to agree with you ... what would happen if the media backlash was more in tune with the music, than the "business" itself, or as you mention later, the reviewer not being honest, but simply doing the party line so his group/friends agree with him, and vice versa. I kinda felt similarly when the guy in Melody Maker said that Tangerine Dream sounded like washing machine music, and of course, being the turkey I am, the first thing I said to myself was ... there's no way that anyone is going to record a washing machine and call it music! And of course, as I heard more, I came to find that the reviewer had the ears of an idiot and a jerk, not for music!
Now you know why I might make jokes and fun of punk, but I won't put it down. There is some validity to all work, or it is all meaningless in all the other places, and ideas that we listen to every day. I kinda say this is like playing music left handed instead of right handed, and we're not being fair to the whole perspective. There were just as many, or more examples on stage and film, of this kind of material and behavior, and music was no different in that respect to any of the other arts.
Agreed! It's always nice to see you write these within a historical context. You do it much better than I do, and sometimes in better detail than I can. In many ways, you would be the person to write the book on "progressive" as your perspective, is, at least, appreciative of all music, instead of jaded and affected by favoritism. Edited by moshkito - February 22 2014 at 15:02 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Rick Robson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 03 2013 Location: Rio de Janeiro Status: Offline Points: 1607 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 08:23 |
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I don't agree that many prog rock fans tend to dismiss new wave or punk rock in general, tough i think the contrary is true, i've known many punk rock fans that hate prog rock in general. For me a prog rock fan has to be openminded, I consider myself from my personal taste prefering for example the symphonic-era Eloy albums than anything from Simple Minds, The Alarm, U2, Smiths, Men at Work, The Cure, Police, etc., but am always ready to talk about these "new wave" or whatever called bands i just mentioned which i can assure you i know a lot. Besides that, i consider myself being a long date Classical Music fan, the genre i most like and identify with, and it's wrong what i has read here about the classical music "club of inveterate fans" being arrogantly hateful towards these other genres of music. A plain example of the relationship full of "feedbacks" between classical music and pop rock can be seen below in a Deutsch Grammophon recording:
Bryce Dessner: St. Carolyn By The Sea / Jonny Greenwood: Suite From "There Will Be Blood" [Soundtrack]: Edited by Rick Robson - February 22 2014 at 11:37 |
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 "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 06:29 |
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I don't believe for one minute that once we crossed the decade boundary of 31st December 1979 that musicianship, technical ability and creative competence vanished overnight. Nor do I bestow any of the musicians that emerged during the late sixties and early seventies with any special skills that were not present before or after. Sure there were musicians in all eras who achieve fame and fortune in spite of their natural ability, even in Prog - given the number of Prog bands that ever existed, (and each had a guitarist), the same dozen names crop up on peoples lists of great prog guitarists, the genre has a number of mediocre guitarist. With the number of Prog musicians that freely adopted new-wave (for whatever reason), and not just the bands that attempted the transition but individual musicians too, the "dumbing down" of musical prowess to fit the new fashion was not unknown or without president. Those musicians did not dumb down their chops, they simply didn't indulge in excessive displays of virtuosity. In the eighties virtuosity was a dirty word and that was propagated by the media, so yes, I do empower the troll-hacks at NME and Sounds with the means to influence the prevailing fashion. In the internet age we tend to forget how influential the music press was in dictating trends, the NME, Sounds and Melody Maker in the UK were the only window the average record buyer had into this world, one review is all it took to sway public opinion when the number of available reviews was reduced to just those three voices. At The Enid's "Over The Rainbow" gig at the now defunct Rainbow Theatre in 1979 I was sat next to a journalist from the Melody Maker and while we were waiting for the gig to start we chatted - he was defiantly anti-Prog and had little interest in being there other than it being "just a job", so even though he warmed to the band as they played and stood with us applauding loudly during their six curtain calls, the scathing review he posted the following Wednesday was little more than a second-rate hack-job that toed the party line rather than an honest assessment. I will concede that Prog rock was on its dying legs as the seventies passed the half-way mark, even before the advent of punk Pub Rock was attracting a growing audience from the demographic of white teenage males who would have bought into Prog Rock a few years earlier (though the hail of beer cans that greeted Eddie and the Hot Rods at Reading in '76 does not signify unanimous acceptance of that genre with the long-haired unwashed). We should also remember that Progressive Rock was not the only music genre that was popular in the seventies and its audience was a subset of the record-buying public from a narrow demographic. That demographic did not buy Slade albums in the seventies or Duran Duran albums in the eighties.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 05:33 |
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I've pulled-out these two quotes to answer as one since in my mind they are related, being different sides of the same coin.
To start, I'll pose a question: Do we prefer to listen to ELP playing Pictures at an Exhibition or an orchestral version arranged by Henry Wood or Maurice Ravel played by a concert orchestra? Conversely, if structure, composition and classical influence was the be-all and end-all of Progressive Rock then we should in theory prefer orchestral versions of those Rock albums over any band performance, and would revere any cover version as highly as the original recording, just as we do a piece by Bach, Mahler or Hayden played by the Berlin Philharmonic or The London Symphony Orchestra. Yet when we hear a concert orchestra playing the music of Progressive Rock Bands such as Yes, ELP, Genesis or Pink Floyd, we relegate them to the same 'toothless' kitch as the classic-lite of The James Last Orchestra or Andre Rieu, even when that orchestra is as renowned as the LPO. Simply put: when we translate Prog Rock to a Classical framework it fails to make the grade, that in itself is evidence enough that Prog Rock's classical influence is superficial and vastly overstated. When we get down to the nitty-gritty of each piece of Progressive Rock composition and pick over it in any detail the classical "influence" quickly disappears, even when those pieces have orchestration and orchestral composition (Atom Heart Muver), cod-symphonic-like structure (Close To The Fridge) or have a seemingly orchestral-like compositional approach (Tubby Bells), the core material was at best classic-lite to begin with and, in the main, non-existent (think of all the Yes songs that are not CttE or The Gates of Delerium). Progressive Rock music (and here I would single out the Prog Rock Epic as being the epitome of the genre but not its defining feature) is an expansion of rock music following conventional "rock" structures of composition. The only "rock" compositions that in my mind have successfully made the transition from studio band recordings to full classical renditions are Philip Glass's adaptation and arrangement of Bowie's Heroes and Low albums performed by the American Composers Orchestra. And there we do not see a note-for-note verbatim transcription of the published music of Bowie, Eno & Fripp into an orchestral score, the Heroes and Low Symphonies bear little resemblance to the original works they are based upon, for example: Of course you can (and rightly so) argue that Heroes is not Progressive Rock and the original was as far from being influenced by classical music as anyone can possible get, and that is kind-of my point: there is nothing in Rock composition that can make the transition to classical music without significant alteration and addition even with classically inspired or influenced pieces.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 05:13 |
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As ever, lot's of interesting and perceptive points there Dean but I have problem with the red portion above. Are you so sure that the fashion cops over at the NME and Sounds were empowered to such an extent that musicians as imaginative and talented as say, John McGeoch, Tom Verlaine, Robert Smith and Keith Levine dumbed down their chops just to avoid a speeding ticket?  For me, Prog was on its last legs long before Punk really held sway centre stage circa 76/77 and the relative simplicity and accessibility of Post Punk/New Wave was a natural reaction against what many thought was the bombastic, complexity as an end in itself, empty virtuosity and out of touch reality of the Prog giants. (notwithstanding Punk's appearance) Such is the cyclic nature of popular music that one generation's values are eclipsed by the next's (in this case brevity, economy, discipline, lyrical realism etc and the broadsheets can only reflect this as much as they pretend to drive it) I really don't believe that the best post punk musicians would have played anything remotely resembling Progressive Rock had it endured into the eighties nor do I detect the level of competence you describe as being on a par with the Prog Rock virtuosos existing in Post Art Rock. However, someone is bound to post a clip of Captain Sensible letting rip on widdly widdly guitar (the man really is a shredder on a par with any of the guitar giants )BTW if anyone needs evidence of the late John McGeoch's spine cracking brilliance check out the intros to Sin in My Heart with the Banshees or Philadelphia by Magazine Edited by ExittheLemming - February 22 2014 at 05:20 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 05:09 |
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Parade could easily pass for a VDGG track anyway. And are only prog rock heroes allowed to work with Brian Eno? Why is it somehow 'invalid' for Talking Heads to do so (um, temporarily ignoring the fact that they ARE included in prog archives).
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13627 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 04:41 |
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Great post, Iain, and I wholly agree. I still enjoy the heavy rock of my youth, I still thrill when I listen to Fleetwood Mac (all eras), appreciate The Smiths as much now as I did in the eighties, and think that Paul Heaton had the voice of an angel and did terrific stuff with Housemartins and Beautiful South. I didn't care much for punk as a movement, but some of the bands of that era could play, and I still occasionally dip into Stranglers and Clash. XTC need no introduction on this site, but some of the eighties sub movements that morphed out of punk and post punk were pure art rock, simple as. People really do need to be less rigid. Great music is great music, no matter what it is labelled as.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 04:01 |
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Picking up on Point 1 there Iain (and running off on a tangent)...
Generalisations are seldom a reflection of reality since post punk or new wave isn't a style of music but an umbrella term that encompasses a vast gamut of musical styles and influences that ranges from the mainstream commercial through to the underground fringe (much like Prog). We have this occluded view of new-wave as being a less musically adept genre that followed on from the "any one can play" 3-chord ethos of punk rock except it wasn't like that - the musicians from that era would have played Progressive Rock if that had endured into the eighties and if there hadn't been a media backlash against outwardly showy musicianship. Those musicians who could play at the same level of competence and skill as those from the seventies didn't not make music in the eighties and, contrary to the received mythos, they didn't grow up listening to The MC5s and The Stooges, they grew up listening to Prog and Krautrock and learnt their trade from those albums. They formed a subset of post punk where "punk" is a musicological misnomer, it is Post Art Rock. There are many high-profile new-wave bands that fit that description, and a huge pool of lesser known bands, but because of the broad sweeping umbrella-ness of the term they get lumped in with the multitude of Top 40 synth-pop hit makers from the eighties that rightly or wrongly receive our disdain. A case in point is the band that's been mentioned, Magazine have that Teutonic undercurrent melding with a melodic 'art rock' ear: Dave Formula's piano and synth work is not perfunctory, one-finger playing, nor is it simplistic and untrained (he was in a short-lived Prog band signed to the Vertigo label in the 70s called Ankh that was the brainchild of Dave Rohl of the Mandalaband); and John McGeoch's guitar playing is as measured and as sublime as any technically proficient axe-wielder of the Prog era. I have oft called him the finest guitarist of his generation and I do not consider that to be an exaggeration, he is not spoken of in the same hallowed tones as Fripp, Hillage and Howe because it wasn't fashionable to display such technical prowess so openly in the eighties, yet it is there on every Magazine and Banshees track he played on and is as defining and as creative as anything Fripp did with Crimson or Bowie. Because of that the "cult of personality" that made bedroom-wall heroes of musicians like Gilmour, Fripp, Wakeman and Emerson in the seventies now focussed on the singers who were still permitted to "show-off" on stage, so that when we hear the name Magazine we automatically think of Howard Devoto and not Dave Formula or John McGeoch, and (at the time) in David Sylvian in Japan rather than Richard Barbieri or Mick Karn. If punk had never happened we would be talking about Magazine with the same reverence as we do Crimson and Van der Graaf because they would have slotted into the same "eclectic" Art Rock category. Not that this is a subversive call for Magazine and their ilk of that posited post-art-rock genre to be reclassified as Prog Bands since punk did happen and those bands evolved into a different flavour of art rock beast, as different to Crimson as Crimson is to Roxy Music. That evolution is evident in many of those "underground" new-wave bands from the late seventies through to the late eighties (and, with bands like Mansun, into the Brit-Pop nineties), and in those bands that began as synth-pop "Smash Hits" poster-boys who progressed into less commercial, more involving, art-rock music such as Japan, Talk Talk and The Icicle Works. [600 words into this post and I've not mentioned the most obvious Krautrock/Art Rock influenced band of the late seventies, Ultravox!] Edited by Dean - February 22 2014 at 06:35 |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 03:01 |
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We all know that sometimes our opinions appear to us as irrefutable facts but that's just the nature of passion I guess . I'm not sure however that we all know what you mean by that usually obnoxious style? What I get from your post is this: 1 - what I like must have a connection to Prog or be predominantly Prog 2 - what I don't like cannot be remotely connected to Prog or contains sufficient new wave influences to qualify as obnoxious. Why do people on this site continually feel the need to seek justification for their tastes by their resemblance to limiting aesthetic criteria that flourished for a brief few years during the 70's? I love the Clash and ELP, I love Echo & the Bunnymen and Gentle Giant, I love Can and the Fall (so did Mark E Smith) I love the Velvet Underground and the Nice, I love the Sex Pistols and VDGG (so did John Lydon) I love XTC and Greenslade. Whenever I get pulled over by the fashion cops for such perceived offences, I have to say that for me there is no contradiction, one style does not negate the other, music is an indivisible whole that only marketing has tried to carve up by way of foisting artificial brand loyalties upon those consumers.feckless enough to believe their feelings have finally dissolved into facts. |
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 02:32 |
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We don't all know that. Some of us think it. Crim went out on a Starless high and return with their new interlocking guitar approach. As Bruford said - if you want to hear the sound of the future listen to the newest Crim. Finding something more futuristic sounding than that... I'm a big fan of Crim 73 - 83 (I even have vinyl - no choice really - of Fripp's drive to 1981 records. Yes of course I like the earlier material as well, it's just progression is more than mellotron plus Euro jazz rock and perpetuating that results in er, Stagnation....   The new wave was what it was, building on the appalling pretensions of punk; it was effectively the art rock version of rock and roll's Berlin Wall (1977). This is where Talking Heads, Fripp, Peter Gabriel and David Bowie found fertile ground to progress. Although Bowie maybe didn't really make it past 1983 until recently... of course a certain Fripp, Levin and Belew circulated there and gathered...   This is also where classical went away as far as prog rock goes. I mean, it was a borrowed ideas to progress ideas not to allow bland middle class acceptability of rock music, well, not too much. Of course it could get worse - orchestral versions of rock. This is enabling middle class to "like" rock - to listen to Whole Lotta Love on compromised terms for example. I think it was The London Philly doing that, Bohemian Rhapsody and Life On Mars and a few others. Nice, but toothless. Fripp understood it was time to let go. The poor old fans had found their oasis of delights and like most rock fans, don't really like change - bands playing different tunes and all that jazz.... |
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2779 |
Posted: February 22 2014 at 01:42 |
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We all know early Crimso is the best. Discipline is mainly prog, but certainly also new wave on a less integral level (whereas something like Magazine would be the other way around... or post-punk, it's basically the same. I use 'new wave' as the umbrella). It's the best album that has anything to do with that usually obnoxious style by an enormous margin.
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: February 21 2014 at 10:28 |
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Then why is your username based on a group that disbanded in 1974 out of dissatisfaction with the state of progressive rock as a movement, only to reform as a new wave outfit in the 1980s?  Anyway, I consider the "prog/psych vs. punk/new wave" narrative flawed as hell because there's many examples of mutual influence... where the differences are often more aesthetic/subcultural than anything else. At least if you consider Krautrock, Captain Beefheart and Hawkwind to be prog since their influence on punk is very important. Then there's a band like Voivod which is younger than either but where influence from both are quite evident. By the way, I should clarify that I don't subscribe to Jim Derogatis' rather strict definition of progressive rock. I've also checked his book and his stance on Jethro Tull is that some of their albums are prog (e. g. Aqualung, TAAB, APP) but others aren't. (e. g. the first three) It's mostly Hawkwind, Pink Floyd and the Germans he excludes from prog on the basis of insufficient neoclassicism. |
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13056 |
Posted: February 21 2014 at 09:37 |
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Why yes, they are each currently married I believe, and both wives are very attractive, and both married after their initial success. But you missed the point completely as you did when you quoted a single, facetious line of my prior post while ignoring the rest.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: February 21 2014 at 09:26 |
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Both are married as far as I'm aware, and neither became disco artists after the exchange of vows, so what's uh the deal? |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13056 |
Posted: February 21 2014 at 09:11 |
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And isn't rock music, besides the arrogant and pretentious facades some pompous folk try to slather it with, merely an attempt by scrawny guys to get laid via playing guitar? Imagine poor Geddy Lee or Robert Fripp trying to get a date without a band. Forced celibacy is a terrible thing.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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Is classical influence essential to prog rock?
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