| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Epignosis 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
|
 Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:13 |
 The T wrote:
The poorest people don't have access to your private schools, and their parents, we agreed, are too stupid to be able to teach them anything.
So, OMG how will they learn?!? |
I never said parents are too stupid to be able to teach them anything. You read too much into nearly everything.
I also don't own any private schools and I've never even been to one. I attended public school and it was largely a waste of my time. I wish I had been home schooled, to be honest.
Bottom line is at some point parents have to take responsibility for the children they create. It isn't my responsibility (or any other taxpayer's responsibility) to support other people's children. There will always be poor people, and it isn't the government's place to make people not poor.
|
|
|
 |
Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:08 |
Posting fast and furious... 
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:06 |
Epignosis wrote:
The T wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
The T wrote:
I should've added "in the industrialized world" and then it would be absolutely true. The US kicks the hell out of all Europe and prosperous countries in obesity... |
Doesn't that run counter to your notion that somehow being poor makes you obese?
You keep making claims (that you never back up) and they seemingly contradict each other.
|
No I actually acknowledged that it is possible that being stupid makes you obese. |
Perhaps we're so obese because we expect everything to be easy or be handed to us. 
|
Then France would be a nation of obese people, and the UK... Imagine communist Rusia! And Cuba!
Now a few fat tenors in Italy don't mean anything...
|
|
|
|
A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:06 |
|
|
|
Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:05 |
Padraic wrote:
Negoba wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
No one is saying that it's easy to go from being poor to being rich. Of course it isn't But it is possible. And it's not matter of working harder alone, but also working smarter. Finding a niche in the market that needs filling. Plenty of people have accomplished this, but I agree that it's very difficult. The general philosophy of America is that those who overcome this difficulty should be rewarded for it, whereas those who do not have that choice. Even the poorest Americans are not starving to death. If they want more, opportunities exist. |
Why are they not starving?
The state stealing from the rest of us with money and giving out food stamps.
|
That's one way.
Another are local food banks and/or kitchens, the former to which I donate a considerable amount, because I personally abhor the thought of anyone not having enough to eat. |
I actually agree, that in an ideal world, that would be all we needed. It's not enough to get the job done.
SES = Socio - Economic Status
Edited by Negoba - September 23 2010 at 15:06
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:05 |
The poorest people don't have access to your private schools, and their parents, we agreed, are too stupid to be able to teach them anything.
So, OMG how will they learn?!?
|
|
|
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:05 |
The T wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
The T wrote:
I should've added "in the industrialized world" and then it would be absolutely true. The US kicks the hell out of all Europe and prosperous countries in obesity... |
Doesn't that run counter to your notion that somehow being poor makes you obese?
You keep making claims (that you never back up) and they seemingly contradict each other.
|
No I actually acknowledged that it is possible that being stupid makes you obese. |
Perhaps we're so obese because we expect everything to be easy or be handed to us.
|
|
|
|
Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:04 |
|
What is SES?
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:04 |
Wait till I create a "Genesis vs Yes from an ideological perspective: would they have benefited if the UK didn't collect taxes from their citizens?"
|
|
|
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:03 |
The T wrote:
Now you also want to take public education away from them... What chances do they have now to ever learn?? |
OMG without government education, how will anybody learn anything? 
|
|
|
|
Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:03 |
I don't understand the point you're trying to make. We all know it is difficult to break away from your upbringing. So what? Why is that my fault?
No one said it was your fault, just that you have to help pay for the safety net. The more you prosper, the more you have to contribute. It's really not that difficult a concept. Yes it's a disincentive to overstratify SES. Good. Overstratified SES is a huge, if not the primary source of social unrest.
|
|
Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:03 |
Negoba wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
No one is saying that it's easy to go from being poor to being rich. Of course it isn't But it is possible. And it's not matter of working harder alone, but also working smarter. Finding a niche in the market that needs filling. Plenty of people have accomplished this, but I agree that it's very difficult. The general philosophy of America is that those who overcome this difficulty should be rewarded for it, whereas those who do not have that choice. Even the poorest Americans are not starving to death. If they want more, opportunities exist. |
Why are they not starving?
The state stealing from the rest of us with money and giving out food stamps.
|
That's one way.
Another are local food banks and/or kitchens, the former to which I donate a considerable amount, because I personally abhor the thought of anyone not having enough to eat.
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:02 |
Epignosis wrote:
The T wrote:
I should've added "in the industrialized world" and then it would be absolutely true. The US kicks the hell out of all Europe and prosperous countries in obesity... |
Doesn't that run counter to your notion that somehow being poor makes you obese?
You keep making claims (that you never back up) and they seemingly contradict each other.
|
No I actually acknowledged that it is possible that being stupid makes you obese.
|
|
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:01 |
Negoba wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
No one is saying that it's easy to go from being poor to being rich. Of course it isn't But it is possible. And it's not matter of working harder alone, but also working smarter. Finding a niche in the market that needs filling. Plenty of people have accomplished this, but I agree that it's very difficult. The general philosophy of America is that those who overcome this difficulty should be rewarded for it, whereas those who do not have that choice. Even the poorest Americans are not starving to death. If they want more, opportunities exist. |
Why are they not starving?
The state stealing from the rest of us with money and giving out food stamps.
The idea of a minimal safety net with ability to get higher quality if you can afford it has always been my ideal, including for health care (wow back to topic.)
In terms of health care our current safety net involves expensive, poor care. But if our argument was "Ok what is the safety net going to look like and how will we fund it?" and "How will other options look and how will they be funded?" we'd have moved WAY forward. Instead we're arguing about whether there should be a safety net at all, when there already is one. |
|
|
|
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:01 |
The T wrote:
I should've added "in the industrialized world" and then it would be absolutely true. The US kicks the hell out of all Europe and prosperous countries in obesity... |
Doesn't that run counter to your notion that somehow being poor makes you obese?
You keep making claims (that you never back up) and they seemingly contradict each other.
|
|
|
|
Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:00 |
The T wrote:
Have you noticed how we libertarians and liberals have hijacked the entire "topics not related to music" forums?  |
yeah.. 
|
|
Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:00 |
thellama73 wrote:
No one is saying that it's easy to go from being poor to being rich. Of course it isn't But it is possible. And it's not matter of working harder alone, but also working smarter. Finding a niche in the market that needs filling. Plenty of people have accomplished this, but I agree that it's very difficult. The general philosophy of America is that those who overcome this difficulty should be rewarded for it, whereas those who do not have that choice. Even the poorest Americans are not starving to death. If they want more, opportunities exist. |
Why are they not starving?
The state stealing from the rest of us with money and giving out food stamps.
The idea of a minimal safety net with ability to get higher quality if you can afford it has always been my ideal, including for health care (wow back to topic.)
In terms of health care our current safety net involves expensive, poor care. But if our argument was "Ok what is the safety net going to look like and how will we fund it?" and "How will other options look and how will they be funded?" we'd have moved WAY forward. Instead we're arguing about whether there should be a safety net at all, when there already is one.
|
|
thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:00 |
The T wrote:
Have you noticed how we libertarians and liberals have hijacked the entire "topics not related to music" forums? |
And even some of the music forums as well.
|
|
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 14:59 |
Have you noticed how we libertarians and liberals have hijacked the entire "topics not related to music" forums?
|
|
|
|
thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
|
Posted: September 23 2010 at 14:57 |
Negoba wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Negoba wrote:
I'll go where people (not here, just in general) seem to want to avoid...culture and intelligence.
Our values about hard work and reward are cultural ideas that were taught to us...they're not absolute truths. Furthermore, those of us gifted with a certain degree of intelligence are able to pick and choose somewhat, sticking with the parts of our upbringing that work for us and discarding some parts that we don't like or aren't working.
If you're born poor and slow third generation and work isn't part of your family's culture, what honest chance is there for you to break out? There are examples, but most of those are at the head of the intelligence curve within their own culture groups.
Add in mental illness (also more common in lower SES groups) and this whole "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" crap is revealed for the fantasy it is.
I'm not excusing anybody, or blaming anybody.
|
If work isn't part of your culture, you'd better change your attitude to your culture if you want to be successful in this country. Of course, if you don't want to work, that's perfectly fine with me, just don't complain when you don't have very much money.
|
How many people reject their cultures of origin? How many people of below average intelligence reject their cultures of origin? How many people of below average intelligence and minimal financial means break out?
If the choice is break out or starve, things would be different. But we'd have to accept alot more people dying of starvation, and a helluva lot more crime. And that's part of the libertarian system, people have to be able to truly fail. No where near the majority of people are ready for that. Most would argue that part of having a civilized society is so that starvation and murder to eat don't have to happen. |
I don't understand the point you're trying to make. We all know it is difficult to break away from your upbringing. So what? Why is that my fault?
|
|
|
|
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Do you support universal healthcare?
