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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?
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Nogbad_The_Bad View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.

Something else, in the thread "Plans on PA for becoming an all-music site?" some collaborators are argueing for expanding/changing the understanding of Prog on PA, so it's not only me who might like to "define" differently.


I don't remember seeing any of that in that thread, quotes please.
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^ That's not what I'm talking about. There can be consensus between collaborators about which artist to accept or not to enter the PA database, that does not at all affect an eventual definition of what is "prog" or not. You can have a consensus about an artist/an album, but you probably will never have consensus about what is exactly prog.

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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

We all have our own definitions of what is and what isn't prog, and that's perfectly fine. For instance, I disagree with Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Miles Davis, Roxy Music & Talk Talk being classed as prog, but I'm glad they're all here on ProgArchives. The more the merrier in my view. Thumbs Up

No, we do not, and no, it's not fine.
 
Yes we do. At least, I do. I agree with Paul regarding the artists he cites: I myself would never have considered them to be prog, and I still don't, despite PA's classification.

There will never be a consensus on the definition of what prog is anyway, so don't consider whatever definition as the only valid one. Not even PA's. It isn't. It never will be.

Not what I meant at all. 
As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

We all have our own definitions of what is and what isn't prog, and that's perfectly fine. For instance, I disagree with Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Miles Davis, Roxy Music & Talk Talk being classed as prog, but I'm glad they're all here on ProgArchives. The more the merrier in my view. Thumbs Up

No, we do not, and no, it's not fine.
 
Yes we do. At least, I do. I agree with Paul regarding the artists he cites: I myself would never have considered them to be prog, and I still don't, despite PA's classification.

There will never be a consensus on the definition of what prog is anyway, so don't consider whatever definition as the only valid one. Not even PA's. It isn't. It never will be.


Edited by suitkees - August 17 2022 at 12:39

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Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.

Something else, in the thread "Plans on PA for becoming an all-music site?" some collaborators are argueing for expanding/changing the understanding of Prog on PA, so it's not only me who might like to "define" differently.
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

We all have our own definitions of what is and what isn't prog, and that's perfectly fine. For instance, I disagree with Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Miles Davis, Roxy Music & Talk Talk being classed as prog, but I'm glad they're all here on ProgArchives. The more the merrier in my view. Thumbs Up

No, we do not, and no, it's not fine. 
if everyone came with their own definition of things, there would not be any consensus in anything.

I can make my own list of bands I do not think should be here on PA, but that does not mean i have my own definition of what prog is. 
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.

When I'm ready for it and find it appropriate to do, I'll do it - even I'd say, there's an okay answer for such question in all my posts in this blog if somebody's in hurry.

Besides that, I haven't seen a really definition of Progressive Rock on PA which I can compare with my own, or maybe the two I want to use at the time I want to answer a question like this. Wink

We all have our own definitions of what is and what isn't prog, and that's perfectly fine. For instance, I disagree with Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Miles Davis, Roxy Music & Talk Talk being classed as prog, but I'm glad they're all here on ProgArchives. The more the merrier in my view. Thumbs Up


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - August 17 2022 at 12:24
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Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.

When I'm ready for it and find it appropriate to do, I'll do it - even I'd say, there's an okay answer for such question in all my posts in this blog if somebody's in hurry.

Besides that, I haven't seen a really definition of Progressive Rock on PA which I can compare with my own, or maybe the two I want to use at the time I want to answer a question like this. Wink
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.

After all this is PA not Allmusic.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

always? Confused
Suitkees answered that already on the previous page. 
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But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

... as a listener, classifications and other descriptors help me understand what I hear. It does not take away from the listening experience. 

No, it doesn't, on the contrary, and here we go once again, Cristi. Handshake
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


If talking about Progressive Rock sub-genres on RYM, they're:

Avant-Prog (incl. RIO and Zeuhl)
Brutal Prog
Canterbury Scene
Neo-Prog
Symphonic Prog


Lot's of what we consider sub-genres here appear under other hierarchies on RYM, Fusion is under Jazz, Progressive Electronic is under Electronic, Progressive Metal is under Metal, Krautrock is under Experimental Rock, etc.

So it is.
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ There are no laws about genres, so if someone considers Metal as a main genre, it is a main genre to him; and he can probably define lots of Metal sub-genres. Classifications are man made and can change from person to person. Sometimes there's a more overarching consensus about classifications, which then become a norm. But a norm is just what it is: a norm. Not a natural law.

I couldn't agree more with that, and very well put, suitkees. Thumbs Up


Edited by David_D - August 17 2022 at 10:25
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

I prefer to be surprised. ;-)


So much music, so little time.

Exactly, if I can filter out Dance Pop, Rap & Contemporary Country, etc then I at least have a start.
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

May I just crack my knuckles and pick up the fountain pen for a moment ?

Musical sub genres. 

These are just for advertising and marketing purposes, ladies and gents. If you write and play music (raises hand) you don't automatically think "Oh, I know, I'll write some Funk Metal, throw a bit of Blackgaze in and we'll end up with some Blackened Screamo". 

Unless you're very, very sad. 

I'd be sitting there thinking "What's a typical chord progression for Sludge Metal and what's the solo going to sound like ? " - truth of the matter is that music doesn't work like that. You can copy someone who'd decide that they're Electrogrind or Progressive Metalcore. 

But basically, it's all generically heavy metal, which is generically rock music which has blues derivations, or perhaps not in some cases and perhaps so in others. 

It used to be a case that Band A sounded different from Band B. and, for a while, there was not much to distinguish heavy rock, hard rock and heavy metal, for example. But. All of a sudden, everything has to be categorised ? Why ? Sells albums. I think. Allegedly. 

"We - Mongolian Doom Badgers - play Snot Metal and sound just like Codpiece of Disaster". 

But in the real world, ie "listening to music", how much categorisation and sub categorisation do you want ? If a musician tries to play in one specific style, it's derivative, if they try and sound like someone else, it's probably going to be crap music, and if you go off looking for a specific category of music, you're closing your mind to what's out there. 

"Krautrock" covers many different bands and genres. Go off and listen to the lot, with an open mind. Same with "Progressive rock".

Stop analysing. Stop categorising. Listen. Enjoy. By constantly searching for stuff that sounds the same, you're closing your mind. 

After all, it's not like you're paying for it anymore, and oh no, I've done the analytics from my Bandcamp website, you tight fisted lot. Your only expenditure is time. Not money. ;-) 

You are right, not doubt, but as a listener, classifications and other descriptors help me understand what I hear. It does not take away from the listening experience. 
Yes, that's a very good point. I look for music labelled Symphonic Prog because I know there's a very good chance I'll like it, while at the same time knowing I should avoid any music labelled as Avant Prog because it's unlikely to appeal to my conventional tastes. Smile
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


You are right, not doubt, but as a listener, classifications and other descriptors help me understand what I hear. It does not take away from the listening experience. 

That's fair enough, however given that you generally agree with Dave's point, I have a hard time understanding why Paul's past "quick and very dirty" classification bothers you that much.
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Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

I prefer to be surprised. ;-)


So much music, so little time.
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I prefer to be surprised. ;-)

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I helps in the constant search for new music, it doesn't limit the search.
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