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Early British Prog vs American. Discuss.
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20617 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 14:35
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.


No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....



See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink


I'm the fifth one and I'm referring to that time period having more proggy prog not the start point, I also refer to RTF, WR, Miles Davis, BS&T before that. 

For the third one thats psycho paul so you're just lucky he didn't call Kansas neo.
I'm one of those crusty types that has a hard time associating jazz fusion with prog rock, (even though I like it) but if it be so, then American prog had been around a hell of a long time before the Brits started getting complicated.

Edited by SteveG - March 25 2021 at 14:36
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....


See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink

I have, and neither says there wasn’t US prog before Kansas..... 🙄


To me fusion and jazz rock isn't necessarily the same as prog. I suppose it depends on where you want to draw the line though. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - March 25 2021 at 14:59
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Points: 6737 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 14:14
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....


See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink

I have, and neither says there wasn’t US prog before Kansas..... 🙄
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....


See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink

I'm the fifth one and I'm referring to that time period having more proggy prog not the start point, I also refer to RTF, WR, Miles Davis, BS&T before that. 

For the third one thats psycho paul so you're just lucky he didn't call Kansas neo.
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Points: 18702 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 13:10
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....


See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink
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Points: 6737 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 12:50
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....
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There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

*A* selection of classic American prog albums  from the Prog Line channel. Thumbs Up



Paul, please do not clutter up this excellent thread with a whole bunch of lists with youtube lists that have bugger all to do with the ongoing discussion.

Thank You.
In that case, I won't bother listing American Prog Line albums beginning with the letter "B" Big smile
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

*A* selection of classic American prog albums  from the Prog Line channel. Thumbs Up



Paul, please do not clutter up this excellent thread with a whole bunch of lists with youtube lists that have bugger all to do with the ongoing discussion.

Thank You.
In that case, I won't bother listing American Prog Line albums beginning with the letter "B" Big smile
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

You could take the problem in reverse.Smile

Post whatever thread iabout the XYZ band in the non-prog music discussion and 90% of the prog or not debate could disappear... and the 10% bitching left would be about why you didn't post it in the prog topics LOL


Lol, I might try that sometime!
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I'm listening to A Rainbow in Curved Air right now with a good cigar and cup of coffee with a shot of Sambuca. Pure Bliss. Cuing up In C next.

Edited by SteveG - March 25 2021 at 07:11
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Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Same thing in Canada, TBH. All these bands (and many more) found their way onto my shelves regardless of their proggyness or not.
I knew of Germany and France's prog, partly because I was haunting specialized import shops and some excellent second-hand/used record shops. BTW, the only major prog country that didn't find its way into my record stash was Italy, but that's because I didn't know about it, not because I ignored it.

As for the segregations, I think it came with the different chapels starting to hate or disdain each other in the later 70's I hate Floyd, Disco Sucks, Glam fags, Three-chord blues etc...

The problem is you can't ever discuss these artists and what was good about them without having to feel worried about being inappropriate, as you worry about someone jumping on you stating this don't fit here it belongs someplace else.  So what made these artist great and why did proggers listen to them as well?

It's a classic misrepresentation of true history as you see all the time in books, tv and internet.

Nick
 

You could take the problem in reverse.Smile

Post whatever thread iabout the XYZ band in the non-prog music discussion and 90% of the prog or not debate could disappear... and the 10% bitching left would be about why you didn't post it in the prog topics LOL


 
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

*A* selection of classic American prog albums  from the Prog Line channel. Thumbs Up



Paul, please do not clutter up this excellent thread with a whole bunch of lists with youtube lists that have bugger all to do with the ongoing discussion.

Thank You.
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Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Peacock’s ‘I’m the One,’ 1972
Riley’s ‘In C,’ 1968
Riley’s ‘Rainbow in Curved Air,’ 1969
Young’s Theatre of Eternal Music was active in the 60’s
Flynt’s ‘Raga Electric,’ recorded 1963-71

I mentioned In C already (and my love for last year’s interpretation of it from David Harrow), but I thought I’d mention Annette Peacock, too. I came to her via Mick Ronson’s solo album, “Slaughter...” where he covered the title track of “I’m the One”, and his cover of “Love Me Tender” is definitely more a cover of Peacock’s version of the song from that same album, than Presley’s. Mick then went on to play on the next Peacock album. (And, of course, fellow Bowie musician, Mike Garson played on “I’m the One”.)

It was Bowie who brought me to Peacock; and to VU, Reed and Cale. It was Bowie who brought me to Van der Graff Generator. It was Bowie who brought me to Eno; and to King Crimson. He was my lead into a lot of prog, I guess....
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I brought this up in a proto-prog thread. Sounds like prog to me: https://youtu.be/lscRNsyEzs4
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*A* selection of classic American prog albums  from the Prog Line channel. Thumbs Up

5 stars 1976: ALBATROSS - Albatross (Symphonic Prog • United States) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaBZNBUOPdk
5 stars 1980: ALSHIA - Alshia (Progressive Rock • United States) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrioMKTbdng
5 stars 1980: ANOTHER WORLD PRODUCTION - The End of the Age (Progressive Rock • United States) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cctfgc3VJE
4 stars 1985: ARIEL - Perspectives (Jazz-Rock • United States) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPb6SYUIFJg
4 stars 1981: ASHBY-OSTERMANN ALLIANCE - Ashby-Ostermann Alliance (Jazz-Rock • United States) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaK_QJ2zxXg
4 stars 1979: ASIA - Asia (Progressive Rock • United States) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqHDFIKk4Ak
4 stars 1981: ASTRE - Foresight (Symphonic Prog • United States) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhp506ca84A
4 stars 1984: AUDIO VISION - Images  (Eclectic Prog • United States) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsdL4qmxoHo
4 stars 1977: AURORA - Aurora  (Jazz-Rock • United States) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJYZQ2wSh_w
3 stars 1982: AURORA BOREALIS - Aurora Borealis with Mitch Dematoff (Jazz-Rock • United States) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIcxoPjEqhQ
4 stars 1976: AUSTIN ROBERTS & ADVENT - Eight Days (A Personal Journey) (Progressive Rock • United States)  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ-GO9VcYms
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Same thing in Canada, TBH. All these bands (and many more) found their way onto my shelves regardless of their proggyness or not.
I knew of Germany and France's prog, partly because I was haunting specialized import shops and some excellent second-hand/used record shops. BTW, the only major prog country that didn't find its way into my record stash was Italy, but that's because I didn't know about it, not because I ignored it.

As for the segregations, I think it came with the different chapels starting to hate or disdain each other in the later 70's I hate Floyd, Disco Sucks, Glam fags, Three-chord blues etc...

The problem is you can't ever discuss these artists and what was good about them without having to feel worried about being inappropriate, as you worry about someone jumping on you stating this don't fit here it belongs someplace else.  So what made these artist great and why did proggers listen to them as well?

It's a classic misrepresentation of true history as you see all the time in books, tv and internet.

If you wish to separate the US with Europe then perhaps the difference was as simple as heavy guitar centered progressiveness versus less heavy guitar centered progressiveness, it's probably not any more complicated than that.

Nick
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Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I think ‘In C’ is proto-prog in that it represents the opening of avant garde concepts to the possibility of their performance by rock musicians, in that ‘In C’ deliberately leaves undetermined its instrumentation. If I wanted to push this idea further I’d say ‘4’33”’ is an even earlier example.

If prog is an attitude not a genre, then In C and 4’33” are both prog compositions. Prog AF! 🤘🏻

Rattle (which released David Harrow’s In C last year) is a jazz and classical label, but much of the music is very progressive even if people might not think of it as prog. They’ve released so much wonderful music over the years, and much of it is prog in my eyes (or, rather, ears).
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Perhaps it partly comes down to speech and accents? 

To my ear, English, Irish, Welsh, and Scots accents seem more melodious than American accents. Maybe a lifetime of speaking melodic UK accents seeps into the music?  




Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 25 2021 at 06:16
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I think ‘In C’ is proto-prog in that it represents the opening of avant garde concepts to the possibility of their performance by rock musicians, in that ‘In C’ deliberately leaves undetermined its instrumentation. If I wanted to push this idea further I’d say ‘4’33”’ is an even earlier example.
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