Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > General Music Discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Punk: A Logical Extension of Prog?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedPunk: A Logical Extension of Prog?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678910 11>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 09:12
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:



Tom Verlaine felt Television were not part of any so-called punk movement. "We felt outside of that," he says. "I don't think any of those bands (Patti Smith, Blondie, Talking Heads, Voidoids) were punk and everybody knows they're not punk so it's kind of a dead issue. Nobody calls those bands punk, outside of maybe the Ramones."



I'm aware of the distinctions between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law, Ian. Simply put, Television has to be categorized. So what category would you place them in?

Edited by SteveG - March 07 2015 at 09:28
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 09:09
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Post punk, eh? Ok, that makes sense. But who were the real Punks then? And what became of them?
Well, it certainly wasn't The Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Dammed, The Ramones or Television.
 
 
Ok, Guv'nor, I give up. Ello,Ello.
Yup. You are getting real good at quoting posts. Shame they do not illustrate the point you are trying to make. That quote does not say, or even fncking imply, that I saw "bands like Television as followers and not the Punk originators."


 
Oh well, I guess we're back to semantics then.

Edited by SteveG - March 07 2015 at 09:28
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 07:19
LOL

You gotta love this place.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 07:12
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Come on now - every surgical room would brighten up with a bit of John Cleese and funny shoes thrown into the mix. Focus a little more on the yang ya dig?


I dig, I dig.
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 07:08
Come on now - every surgical room would brighten up with a bit of John Cleese and funny shoes thrown into the mix. Focus a little more on the yang ya dig?
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 07:06
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

The first one was rather tongue-in-cheek mateyWink


We can but remain eternally grateful you are not a surgeon by tradeWink
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:53
The first one was rather tongue-in-cheek mateyWink
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:44
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

In many ways you could say that punk rock was the new "prog rock" when it emerged.

Music doesn't need to be complex or hard to play in order to be cutting edge or indeed progressive.
 


The second sentence quoted above I applaud heartily Clap as for the first, you clearly emerged from a diabetic coma in the interimConfused
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:43
I love both as well Sam. I think the supposed "war" between the two is far more real in the mind of music journalists with a computer access than it is to those who actually lived through those years. I have some old school punk friends who certainly think so.

Edited by Guldbamsen - March 07 2015 at 06:43
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
Tom Ozric View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15916
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:42
Punk - a definite reaction to Prog.
Perhaps they're musicians who aren't technically adept, and the singers aren't trained vocalists, but they made a noise, and everyone heard it !!
Back to Top
Meltdowner View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 25 2013
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 10232
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:38
Two completely different music genres that I really like for completelly different reasons. I can't see the connection though Ermm
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:34
^Poor hair hygieneTongue

In many ways you could say that punk rock was the new "prog rock" when it emerged. Sure they took bits and pieces from the 50s RnB scene and sped them up, but it was still a brand new sound - something that hadn't been done before (*cough* The Stooges *cough*). In that respect, they did the same as the proggers of 69 did when they progressed the rock template. 

Music doesn't need to be complex or hard to play in order to be cutting edge or indeed progressive.
 


Edited by Guldbamsen - March 07 2015 at 06:35
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:13
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

However the whole ethos that surrounded punk stunk to high heaven (imo)


Notwithstanding the engineered spin contributed by opportunists like Malcolm McLaren, Richard Hell, Anya Phillips et al what guiding beliefs or ideals (ethos) did you have an issue with that surrounded Punk?
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 27984
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 05:37
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Punk in general was the last big movement of youth.
As a sub-genre of rock music, it was anti-prog more than anything else.
LOL Punk was not a big youth movement. LOL

There is no denying that it had far-reaching affect on the music scene but it was a relatively small genre of music followed by a relatively small number of people over a very brief period of time. 

Those most affected by it were the music journalists whose written "history" of this time many people today get their perceptions from. The music-makers followed on from that, they were not going to create and promote music that these journalists would not write about, but these music-makers (and by that, the music industry) did not start producing Punk Rock as a result of that.

By a process that evolutionary biologists call punctuated equilibrium the advent of the Punk ethos within the music scene created a step-change that found a new stable equilibrium state that bore no relation to the trigger that Punk instigated. This stable state was what we called at the time New Wave and encompassed a wide gamut of music subgenres that were more readily adopted by a larger proportion of youth than Punk had managed to reach, many of these emergent subgenres were themselves the antithesis of Punk. Even bands that had been closely associated with the Punk movement of 1976 were quick to create post-punk new-wave music that had no direct relationship with Punk Rock. It is this post-punk new-wave ethos that many pre-punk musicians adopted, if not wholly musically, at least in style, image and attitude - if only as a result of getting their hair cut short, wearing narrow trousers and thin ties. While it was amusing to see Peter Gabriel perform a Punk version of White Shade Of Pale on stage, the stripped-back music he recorded on his albums owed more to applying New Wave attitudes to his Progressive music background than any slim-pickings he could glean from Punk Rock. 


 
WOW that's a really great post although my own experience growing up at the time was that punk was exciting because it had energy while New Wave was a bit of a yawn to me. I loved ELP at the time because they were exciting and energetic ( based admittedly on earlier albums not Works)  and I saw much to like in The Sex Pistols for the same reasons. However the whole ethos that surrounded punk stunk to high heaven (imo) and New Wave as you suggest had the sort of commercial future that punk didn't.
Back to Top
LearsFool View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8642
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 22:22
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Coming from Detroit, "punk" was old hat by 1976. The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges, one politically motivated and the other anarchic and nihilistic, covered the same ground as the alleged punks but at much higher decibels. The New York scene was only fashionable because of free advertising from critics on The Village Voice and Rolling Stone.

Not from the Stone. It took a loooong time for the Stone to warm up to rock that didn't have any remnants of the blues in it.
Patti Smith, The Ramones, Blondie and Television all got very favorable reviews from RS at the time. As long as punk was from the NY scene, it received good reviews. I don't recall how RS responded to British punk, however.
 

Marquee Moon got props from Stone because, as I mentioned earlier, the standard punk sound just was not there. The magazine also had a love-hate relationship with Blondie, being that while, again, not the usual punk, their albums did fluctuate in quality.

Meanwhile, they trashed the self-titled releases from the New York Dolls and Suicide, were lukewarm towards VU, didn't even like Lou Reed's Transformer, let alone Berlin, and have even to this day ignored The Dictators.

Horses and Ramones were the first times they ever gave any punk, let alone NYC punk, a favourable ear. Even then, once the Sex Pistols blew up England for a time, the mag still found itself playing catch-up for awhile, as is now custom for them.
Back to Top
The Dark Elf View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13054
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 22:07
Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Coming from Detroit, "punk" was old hat by 1976. The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges, one politically motivated and the other anarchic and nihilistic, covered the same ground as the alleged punks but at much higher decibels. The New York scene was only fashionable because of free advertising from critics on The Village Voice and Rolling Stone.

Not from the Stone. It took a loooong time for the Stone to warm up to rock that didn't have any remnants of the blues in it.
Patti Smith, The Ramones, Blondie and Television all got very favorable reviews from RS at the time. As long as punk was from the NY scene, it received good reviews. I don't recall how RS responded to British punk, however.
 
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Back to Top
LearsFool View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2014
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 8642
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:56
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Coming from Detroit, "punk" was old hat by 1976. The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges, one politically motivated and the other anarchic and nihilistic, covered the same ground as the alleged punks but at much higher decibels. The New York scene was only fashionable because of free advertising from critics on The Village Voice and Rolling Stone.

Not from the Stone. It took a loooong time for the Stone to warm up to rock that didn't have any remnants of the blues in it.
Back to Top
The Dark Elf View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13054
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:53
Coming from Detroit, "punk" was old hat by 1976. The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges, one politically motivated and the other anarchic and nihilistic, covered the same ground as the alleged punks but at much higher decibels. The New York scene was only fashionable because of free advertising from critics on The Village Voice and Rolling Stone.
 
 
P.S. and to the OPs query, no, punk was neither logical nor an extension of prog. It was the antithesis of prog, and also the corporate rock/AOR crap that was eating up more and more radio airtime.


Edited by The Dark Elf - March 06 2015 at 22:00
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Back to Top
Svetonio View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:38
Just to illustrate how the punk movement was big in my country and how much Punk was popular in former Yugoslavia, here's a feature film Dečko koji Obećava ("The Promising Boy") about the punk movement in former Yugoslavia that was a big hit in cinemas across the country in 1981: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZddmkTQsZaE (English subtitles, drama genre). The members of Belgrade's post-punk band Šarlo Akrobata - already in Prog Archives as an "avant-prog" act what always make me laugh - are also starring in this film. Released in 1981, it was one of the first feature films with the theme of Punk ever filmed. Not that much feature 'punk-movies' was filmed before Yugoslav "The Promising Boy", as e.g. British film Jubilee with Adam Ant from 1977, Rock'n'Roll Highschool, an American comedy with The Ramones from 1979, Dutch movie Cha Cha with Lene Lovich and Nina Hagen from 1979 and the British film Breaking Glass  with Hazel O'Connor from 1980.
In February 1981, one of the major record companies in former Yugoslavia, Jugoton, released a punk / post-punk compilation album titled Paket Aranžman ("Package Deal") with the songs of the most popular Yugoslav punk / post-punk bands; that album sold tremendously well to this day, as it reached a cult status.
 
Both mentioned film and the compilation were a final "victory" of Punk aesthetics here. As a music genre, Punk in my country represented a complete break with the Progressive rock because young bands were completely turned into punk and (or) post-punk. Progressive rock in my country has not yet recovered from Punk hysteria then gripped the former Yugoslavia in late 70s / early 80s. 
 
A few days ago, a former Yugoslav punk rocker (who also starring with his band in "The Promising Boy" the movie), Vlada Divljan from "Idoli" ("Idols") died by cancer at 57. As a young man he was one of the pioneers of the punk movement here, and the government is seriously considering to declare a day of mourning in the capital of Serbia. That's how big youth movement it was here.


Edited by Svetonio - March 07 2015 at 03:12
Back to Top
sublime220 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 21 2015
Location: Willow Farm
Status: Offline
Points: 1563
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:37
Originally posted by Ozark Soundscape Ozark Soundscape wrote:

No.
ClapClapClap
There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678910 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.129 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.