Should the Beach Boys be considered Proto?

Well, I'd never heard of a Tannerin  before so I've learnt something new here.

Dean wrote: SteveG wrote: If the Theremin had been used in the BB's songs for anything other than a cheap atmospheric effect, I would agree with you. But since it was not, then I do not. This comment does not make sense to me, nor do I get what it is in my comments regarding the Theremin and/or the Tannerin that you disagree with.  The Theremin wasn't used on any Beach Boys song and while one could argue (and probably win) that on Good Vibrations and Wild Honey the Tannerin is merely an atmospheric effect, but on I Just Wasn't Made for These Times it isn't, as F13th pointed out, it has a solo - in each of these songs the sound made by the Tannerin is recognisable as being NOT made by a theremin. SteveG wrote: "Doing the right thing is never superfluous." Actually that isn't strictly correct, but I'll let it ride. The trick is knowing what the right thing is.

Time to get the house in order. I didn't realize until last night that you had a sincere interest in the Theremin as a bonifide musical instrument, of which it is. It is also technically  fascinating but please understand that an extraneous conversation between you and I about one only serves to misdirect the points I made in my post about the musical accomplishments of Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations in popular music and why. I initially assumed that your first post about the Theremin was over the top and purposefully distracting, But assuming does make an ass out of people and I have no problem with wearing that badge for today.

As for the Tannerin solo in "I just wasn't made for these times", if memory serves me correctly and when it comes to actual music and sounds, it rarely fails,  (I do not have a working copy of Pet Sounds, only a mint vinyl copy for collecting purposes and have not listened to the album in over 20 years) was no more than a few "notes" or oscillations lasting no more than perhaps 10-13 seconds and sounded like an early Rickenbacker "Frying pan" lap steel guitar with an unadorned watery tone. I believe the Tannerin was just briefly used for it's novelty only for that song, being something new that Wilson was able to get his hands on. The point of my bringing up the Tannerin in the first place was demonstrate the wide varity of instruments used in the recording of Pet Sounds as compared the Beatles more limited use of same on both Rubber Soul and Revolver.

I hope this clears up the Theremin Vs. Tannerin discussion and we can move back to the posted topic.

BTW, my hyperbolic theoretical conversation between Messrs. Kaye and Squire was done solely to redirect the post back to the question of "Should the Beach Boys be considered Proto Prog."

I also hope that this post has cleared the air between us.




"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."


Edited by SteveG - September 16 2014 at 10:03

SteveG wrote: If the Theremin had been used in the BB's songs for anything other than a cheap atmospheric effect, I would agree with you. But since it was not, then I do not.

Atavachron wrote: NYSPORTSFAN wrote: Atavachron wrote: NYSPORTSFAN wrote: I think we all respect Brian Wilson but they are not proto-prog IMO. Pet Sounds while progressive has hardly has any rock elements, Smile was not released until way after the fact and Smiley Smile is disjointed. Another fact is The Beach Boys relied heavily on another musicians to play their instrumental parts. "Smile" was never released except as a nostalgic semi-official 'collectors release' years later (unless you mean Brian Wilson Presents Smile), but the session tapes Wilson had made for "Smile" were circulating not long after recording began.   Smiley Smile is indeed disjointed.   So what?   What does that have to do with being or not being protoprog?   It was among the first American avantgarde rock albums in history. With your premise I guess The Velvet Underground should be proto-prog as their first couple of albums were avant-garde/rock albums and minimalistic? There is no 'premise' and I have no agenda.   Artists are not added to PA because they compare well with other artists deemed progressive.   The Beach Boys were a rock band that was, or became, an art-rock band.   If that bothers you, tough.

I like the Beach Boys or in this case really Brian Wilson but compared to what The Beatles were doing not even close in terms of being progressive.

Eleanor Rigby": Modal Music set to a string Octet- No Traditional rock instruments

"Love To You": A complete fusion of Indian raga with instruments tabla, tamboura and sitar,

"Tomorrow Never Knows": Avant-garde techniques for the most part basically unused by rock bands through the modification of sound through unconventional techniques tape loops/backward music/sound collage.

By the way I would never consider the Velvet Underground as proto-prog. Just making a point you might as well consider every rock band from The Rolling Stones to the Byrds or any band flirting with psychedelia or avant garde influences as proto-prog then?

Edited by NYSPORTSFAN - September 15 2014 at 17:54

^Is a little pregnant not pregnant?  Just joshing. Good post, thanks.









"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

Edited by SteveG - September 15 2014 at 15:46

^Electro-Theremin Vs. Theremin? Is this what we are splitting hairs about now? Well, you at least got to the point of the post.

Edited by SteveG - September 16 2014 at 09:24

King Crimson776 wrote: NYSPORTSFAN wrote: With your premise I guess The Velvet Underground should be proto-prog as their first couple of albums were avant-garde/rock albums and minimalistic? No, because they are more experimental than avantgarde, and minimalistic is the opposite of prog. The Dark Elf wrote: I'm sorry, Steve, but claiming Good Vibrations is proto-prog is almost as ridiculous as saying Velvet Underground was prog. Almost. Good Vibrations is surf music with a theremin thrown in. That doesn't constitute proto-prog. If that's what Good Vibrations seems like to you, music might not be your thing. A Day in the Life is pop with an orchestral climax plastered on (actually, that's more accurate than what you said, seeing as Good Vibrations isn't surf music at all).

And...I'm supposed to be impressed with your alleged music credentials when you employ such a stunningly stultified comparison between Good Vibrations and A Day in the Life?

I'd be willing to bet more posters here, and musicologists as well, would tell you which song is proto-prog and which isn't.


Edited by The Dark Elf - September 15 2014 at 13:45

The Dark Elf wrote: SteveG wrote: NYSPORTSFAN wrote: I think we all respect Brian Wilson but they are not proto-prog IMO. Pet Sounds while progressive has hardly has any rock elements, Smile was not released until way after the fact and Smiley Smile is disjointed. Another fact is The Beach Boys relied heavily on another musicians to play their instrumental parts. The comparison to The Beatles fails miserably as they were doing the heavy hitting with Rubber Soul, Revolver, Strawberry Fields Forever/Penny Lane, Sgt. Peppers, Magical Mystery Tour, The White Album and Abbey Road. Another point is let's look at Revolver diversity which The Beach Boys never even approached on one album and of course is progressive. There is nothing in the Beach Boys catalog as progressive or innovative as "Tomorrow Never Knows" or "Strawberry Fields Forever" "Taxman' proto hard rock/funk, "Love You To" World Music, "Eleanor Rigby" classical, "For No One (Lieder/Art Song), "I'm Only Sleeping" psych/folk, "She Said She Said" Acid Rock", "And Your Bird Can Sing" Power Pop/ Twin Guitar Leads, "Yellow Submarine" Psych Novelty Song", "Got to Get You Into My Life" psych/soul and "Tomorrow Never Knows" basically invents a couple of genres IMO. When someone says The Beach Boys are proto-prog please give me a break. Good Vibrations was the epitome of Proto prog. You have had your break, now go take another. I'm sorry, Steve, but claiming Good Vibrations is proto-prog is almost as ridiculous as saying Velvet Underground was prog. Almost. Good Vibrations is surf music with a theremin thrown in. That doesn't constitute proto-prog.

I always feel sad when musicians make sweeping generalizations as music, like anything else, suffers if people don't know the history of past things and events more completely. How do you know where going if your not sure where you have been?

To say that Good Vibrations is nothing more than surf music with a Theremin would be like saying that Folk Rock is simply Folk music played on an electric guitar. For the record I will state that I personally don't care for the Beach Boys, early Beatles or the voice of Bob Dylan but I do care about the truth, so I have to use these artists in my post.

The 60's is often thought simply as a time of change. That is incorrect. It was a time of people changing. To get back to folk rock which for all intents and puposes was partially created by Dylan by performing at the staid 1965 Newport Folk Festival with an electric band to back up his new musical approach. This caused an incrededible uproar in the folk circles of the time, but the point is that Dylan recognised that he had to put a 4/4 beat under his songs and create a rhythm section with bass and drums. He also knew that going rock was going to involve placing a middle eight section in his songs to be played by either electric guitar or keyboards. For his electric Newport band, he brought in electric blues guitarist Mike Bloomfield to back him and solo. The Byrds had already perfected this folk rock concept with the hit Mr. Tambourine Man. (Incidentally writen by Dylan.)  Dylan followed suit and Folk Music and Folk Rock became seperate entities, forever.

The Beatles who get so much credit for innovation, and rightly so, were also highly influenced by outside musical sources. They did not invent Rock 'n' Roll but picked up it's mantle and moved forward. Their first big influence was Mr. Dylan and his newly introspective songwriting, that tickled John Lennon's fancy the most. it came out on songs like "You've got to hide your love away", "Ticket to ride" and later on, but musicaly hidden, on "Help. It was with this growth that The Beatles started to expand their bounderies to include new musical themes and lyrics, as well as changing personal and social factors, that brought us all the way up from Meet The Beatles to Sgt. Pepper's.

Brian Wilson was also seeking change. Surf Music was a south California music genre that developed in the late 1950's with the magical Dick Dale and his signature sounding "wet'' reverb Fender Mustang guitar that went on influence other surf music instrumental groups of the early 60's like the Ventures. If you've ever heard the song "Wipe Out" by The Surfaris with it's incessant rhythm, you know what Surf Music sounds like. Wilson and the Beach Boys used this template along with the multi part harmony vocals of 50's group The Four Freshman to make up the Beach Boy's surf sound. With Pet Sounds, Wison wanted to go past the surf sound and it's themes of surfer girls and hot rods.

For Pet Sounds he brought in a outside lyricist because he wanted someone to flesh out his more personal lyrics along with a more sophisticated way of composing that would employ more sophisticated arrangements and sessions musicians. He would also employ very different musical instruments in place of the stardard surf music combo of two guitars, bass and drums. While utilizing those instruments he would supplant them with organ, piano, tympani, sleigh bells, clarinet, bass clarinet, tenor and saprono saxophone, trumpet, trumbone, flutes, cello, violins, violas, vibraphone, glockenspiel, French horn, English horn and most strangely, harpsichord. He would also use the Theremin for the first time on any recorded Rock song. ("I know there's am answer" was the song.)

Pet Sounds was so removed from Surf Music that record company Capital was shocked by it and fellow Beach Boy co-founder and co-leader Mike Love was so disgusted by Wilson's change in musical direction that he called the new music on Pet Sounds Brian's "Ego Music". The Beach Boys' fans were disappointed by the album as well and it was the first poor selling BB's album of the 60's in America.

Simply put, Pet Sounds was no longer Surf Music. It was something else for it's time. Pop by today's standards, it was almost without musical category when it was released in 1966. And so was the hit "Good Vibrations" that immidiately followed it. The twangy Dick Dale inspired manic tempo'ed music about hot rods, Woody's and making out at the Drive-in was gone. Like Folk Rock splitting away from Folk, Pet Sounds had split away from Surf.  (But the Pet Sounds split off involved the lyrics as well as the music, so it went further off than Folk Rock from Folk Music.)

So much, that a group called the Beatles, that were so heavily insipred by the lyrics of Bob Dylan and were on their own musical exploration, took notice.

The elephant in the room is still the question about if the Beach Boys are Proto Prog, but it's nice to get the facts out in order to answer that question.

Edited by SteveG - September 15 2014 at 15:32

A friend of mine who doesn't like much prog, and also hadn't ever heard the Beach Boys (or at least didn't remember anything by them), was like "eh, I don't like prog very much" when I played it for him. This is after me playing prog here and there for him. The song seemed basically in line with what I'd been playing. He never made such a comment with the Beatles, even A Day in the Life.

Edited by King Crimson776 - September 15 2014 at 04:55

Svetonio wrote: When I was a little kid who just started to listen to rock music, going to concerts and buy LPs, in the mid-seventies, almost all of that was prog. At local fm radio back then I'd hear very often a song that I quite liked, and I thought that it's a prog song. Sometime later, when I decided to find and buy LP with that song, I was very disappointed when I've been told that the band is not prog band, and that song is "not prog song". The band was called the Beach Boys, and that song was Good Vibrations.  However, Good Vibrations is still to be par excellence prog song for me.