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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Points: 17847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 15:43
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:


Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One
I'd actually say that is one of the LEAST prog related songs on that album.  Just my opinion.  And we're supposed to be talking about DT Wink


I should have quoted the last post on page ONE.....I know this is about DT.
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Points: 3136 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 15:18
As far as Progressive metal....they stand like the statue of Ozymandias (before it was eroded by time) an imperious exponent of a genre that I stumbled across in the early noughties (like the traveller from an antique Land)...and read the plaque on the plinth......Here is Dream Theater.....Band of Bands in the prog metal genre...
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!.....
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Points: 27 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 14:52
I think that they are both.
They have released two masterpieces though.
And they inspired a lot of people to play music so,I thank
them for that. 
Some men are hunting hawks,some men are busy bees,
some louder than a storm,others silent as the trees,
but we're all dressed up as one,noone stands out in the crowd,
We're strangers in this town.
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Points: 13502 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 14:19
I think they were innovators along with Queensryche and Fates Warning when it comes to Prog-Metal. I do believe all three were influenced by Rush though who should get more credit than these other three, but these three did lay the groundwork/rules or whatever you want to call it for what is known as Prog-Metal.
Those negative reviews someone put up have an element of truth as far as i'm concerned, in that I detest when Dream Theater do the ballad thing, and they do it almost on every album! A huge negative for me but on the other hand man these guys can play and I do like when they light it up.
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Points: 28064 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 14:10
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


...
All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.

Strange ... their last album sold just as well as almost any of their albums.

Like my review of the book on them, this is a band that deserves a lot more credit for what they do. Just because it "sounds" like "metal", does not mean that the compositional side of the work they do is not well done, or worthy of attention. Their work is very good and well defined, despite the usual fickle-ness of many fans liking one thing over another. I don't hear Richard saying that he likes Beethoven's 5th and the other symphonies are the sukk'iaki! Or anyone else for that matter.

It kinda tells you that the media today, while helping us HEAR all these things, are also having us hear comments that makes us not understand or be able to actually listen to these things. MY EXPERIENCE, of listening to these long cuts is no different than listening to the 5th or the 9th or the Rite of Spring. I can close my eyes, and the mind trips! Even their lyrics, which many do not like and consider not very good, do not seem to disturb the "visual" that I have of it all while listening. And to me, that is the most enjoyable moments in music, so if I hear a guitar going all over for 5 minutes, is it any different than a violin in a Concerto by Mozart or anyone else? Except that you and I would say, today, that blah and blah, because we're not listening to the whole thing ... we're separating elements that we don't like!

Did you do that when you first heard Debussy? Stravinsky? Mozart? ... why are we doing it to rock or jazz music?


Some very bold comments as always. I think I might even have understood a little bit.

I think many are put off DT by the vocals in the same way many can't warm to Opera perhaps.

BTW any views on Liquid Tension Experiment?
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Points: 3145 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 13:19
Mere imitators Wink
“War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four



"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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Points: 2673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 12:08
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

It's no secret I'm not a Dream Theater enthusiast and although I can admire their technical proficiency, I do so with the same lukewarm regard I reserve for the sterile professionalism embodied by my Dentist. However, I've never really bought into the idea that DT provide a portal to the wider compass of Prog for initiates. Apart from the versions of so-called classic Prog tracks on Jordan Rudess solo albums and those covered by DT, I can't see any evidence for anyone sprinting down to a record store to buy all the Genesis, ELP, Yes, Crimson or Gentle Giant that they can afford after hearing a DT album. OK, it might turn a plain vanilla metal-head onto the likes of Rush, Opeth, Tool, Pain of Salvation etc but to my ears, DT is that tattooed chick in the leather pants who works in the library, has a share portfolio but considers gambling abhorrent and deems complete derangement of the senses might be delivered via a double skinny macchiato with croutons.


Actually, that's what I did, and I'm being completely serious too.

Within a couple months of owning all of DT's albums I had gone out and gotten all the Rush, Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and ELP albums I could afford, and even a King Crimson album. For me, Dream Theater was a gateway to prog. I doubt I am the only one either.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 11:00
^^^  Further, if one doesn't like a piece of music, beyond a point it's not worth banging one's head in vain trying to get to what the artist wanted to convey.  Sometimes one may not be able to relate to it and that's ok.  There's also no point in pretending that bands do not ever get boring or predictable or repetitive over a period of time.  It does happen to lots of bands and has a lot to do with rock's insistence on one 'loyal' lineup of supposedly indispensable artists which can reduce the scope for a fresh source of influence or ideas over time.  
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:53
So you don't have any artists in your collection, where you dislike certain albums, songs or even sections where you think the expression is flat/boring/tasteless? 
I think it's fair to be critical in one's approach to music. Perhaps not over critical, but still. Or else we'll all wind up loving everything equally and nothing is 'better' or 'worse' according to one's own taste (I know these two adjectives are highly overused in regards to music, but at least from a personal pov, people should be able to pinpoint something akin to personal preferences). 
Regarding DT: I like some of their early stuff, but I'm not ashamed to say that I find Labrie's vocals incredibly margarine-like and more than often irritating. 
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Points: 17524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:45

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


...
All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.

Strange ... their last album sold just as well as almost any of their albums.

Like my review of the book on them, this is a band that deserves a lot more credit for what they do. Just because it "sounds" like "metal", does not mean that the compositional side of the work they do is not well done, or worthy of attention. Their work is very good and well defined, despite the usual fickle-ness of many fans liking one thing over another. I don't hear Richard saying that he likes Beethoven's 5th and the other symphonies are the sukk'iaki! Or anyone else for that matter.

It kinda tells you that the media today, while helping us HEAR all these things, are also having us hear comments that makes us not understand or be able to actually listen to these things. MY EXPERIENCE, of listening to these long cuts is no different than listening to the 5th or the 9th or the Rite of Spring. I can close my eyes, and the mind trips! Even their lyrics, which many do not like and consider not very good, do not seem to disturb the "visual" that I have of it all while listening. And to me, that is the most enjoyable moments in music, so if I hear a guitar going all over for 5 minutes, is it any different than a violin in a Concerto by Mozart or anyone else? Except that you and I would say, today, that blah and blah, because we're not listening to the whole thing ... we're separating elements that we don't like!

Did you do that when you first heard Debussy? Stravinsky? Mozart? ... why are we doing it to rock or jazz music?
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Points: 20609 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:04
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

[QUOTE=rogerthat] It's a bit of both.  One thing you have to understand is metal dudes think there is no other music like metal on the planet.  Yeah, everything else, be it rock, jazz, classical, funk whatever is grossly inferior.  Therefore, for everything rock does, there has to be a metal equivalent because that is what metalheads are going to listen to.  (And by the way, I refer here to a certain kind of metalhead.  Not all metalheads, including self, are like that).  They don't want Zappa or Sparks, they want Faith No More or Freak Kitchen which is basically the metal equivalent of those bands/artists.  Likewise, they don't want Rush or Yes.  They want a metal equivalent of these bands.  That is the gap that Dream Theater filled in the 90s.  Since there had been no out and out metal band before (Deep Purple/Rainbow don't count, I mean metal influenced by Iron Maiden/Metallica) that relied so much on complex keyboard-guitar interplay, there was a certain freshness to their sound at that time.  Fates Warning was already doing something somewhat on those lines but they were a lot tighter and relied less on long interludes.  DT by incorporating long interludes evoked prog rock a lot more.  In fairness to them, Petrucci's guitarwork was also more inspired at that time and showed more than just flashes of originality.  But after a while, as it happens with so many bands, DT became a formula to endlessly regurgitate for the satisfaction of fans and the 'dream' part of the name receded in relevance.  I mean, it's more like they are dreaming they are still in the 90s, still just released Images & Words.  They aren't really dreaming up anything fresh.  And again, that is hard and a lot of bands that lasted that long got stuck in a rut so there's no reason why DT should be singled out for criticism on that count.
Always enjoy your posts RT, but i'm not sure that DT ever truly came up with their own original identifiable sound (and I have all their albums) as opposed to a group like Rush who took their metal and prog influences and forged them into their own original trade mark sound and are still making quality music right up to now, IMO. So it's not a matter of me picking on a band for falling into a rut or getting complacent but of one not being able to meld it's various influences into a  distinct musical identity. Again, all of this my subjective opinion which at the end of the day means scwat! LOL



Well, I think DT certainly has developed a distinctive style of their own.  I think they pushed metal into new directions (which is something I KNOW Metallica did).  However, to me, it seems they have been copying themselves (and other bands) since at least 6 Degrees......possibly even earlier.

Personally, I have encountered DT fans that have come to prog thanks to them.  Sure, some of them never went beyond prog metal, but some did actually discover they liked the old Genesis, Yes, ELP, etc. stuff.  They certainly helped to make the prog genre as a whole more visible to a lot more people.  Sure, they probably didn't add any fans to RPI and RIO and Canterbury, but they certainly elevated the modern prog scene to some extent.
[/QUOTE      Lamp Can't deny the importance of DT as originating the prog/metal genre. But as for influencing other metal bands, i don't know, seems like it's a back and forth thing and I listen to a lot of metal. SG                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


Edited by SteveG - June 10 2014 at 10:27
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:03
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One


I think the title tracks of Justice and MoP would count too, if One does. Even something like the Four Horsemen, while not as dynamic, has more different sections to it than One.

Ditto.  Probably also Orion.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:01
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Always enjoy your posts RT, but i'm not sure that DT ever truly came up with their own original identifiable sound (and I have all their albums) as opposed to a group like Rush who took their metal and prog influences and forged them into their own original trade mark sound and are still making quality music right up to now, IMO. So it's not a matter of me picking on a band for falling into a rut or getting complacent but of one not being able to meld it's various influences into a  distinct musical identity. Again, all of this my subjective opinion which at the end of the day means scwat! LOL

Oh, I was not targeting your post when I said what I did about DT simply going through what many bands that have been around for a long time tend to.  

But as for a distinct musical identity, well, it depends on whether you accept the premise that prog metal has its own distinct identity.  I do, because prog rock doesn't rely anywhere as much on heavy guitar riffs.  With that established, it has to be said that DT are one of the definitive and one of the most influential prog metal bands.  Sure, there were a few bands that preceded them, but it was after Images & Words that prog metal grew rapidly.  As Aussie Byrd Brother said, they are the band with which other prog metal bands are most frequently compared and that says it all.  There are, as I pointed out earlier, certain very generic elements and approaches to prog rock within the typical melodic prog metal sound that DT have defined.  But it is they who did it and other bands simply followed their lead.  So I would rank them as one of the most original and distinct bands in all rock music from the 90s even though I am definitely not a huge fan of them.  Yes, I don't think they have been as original as Yes or Genesis or Rush but there are plenty of other prog rock bands who are far more culpable in that regard than DT.  Certain contemporaries of DT that I shall not name here, for instance.  Wink
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Points: 2447 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 09:29
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

It's a bit of both.  One thing you have to understand is metal dudes think there is no other music like metal on the planet.  Yeah, everything else, be it rock, jazz, classical, funk whatever is grossly inferior.  Therefore, for everything rock does, there has to be a metal equivalent because that is what metalheads are going to listen to.  (And by the way, I refer here to a certain kind of metalhead.  Not all metalheads, including self, are like that).  They don't want Zappa or Sparks, they want Faith No More or Freak Kitchen which is basically the metal equivalent of those bands/artists.  Likewise, they don't want Rush or Yes.  They want a metal equivalent of these bands.  That is the gap that Dream Theater filled in the 90s.  Since there had been no out and out metal band before (Deep Purple/Rainbow don't count, I mean metal influenced by Iron Maiden/Metallica) that relied so much on complex keyboard-guitar interplay, there was a certain freshness to their sound at that time.  Fates Warning was already doing something somewhat on those lines but they were a lot tighter and relied less on long interludes.  DT by incorporating long interludes evoked prog rock a lot more.  In fairness to them, Petrucci's guitarwork was also more inspired at that time and showed more than just flashes of originality.  But after a while, as it happens with so many bands, DT became a formula to endlessly regurgitate for the satisfaction of fans and the 'dream' part of the name receded in relevance.  I mean, it's more like they are dreaming they are still in the 90s, still just released Images & Words.  They aren't really dreaming up anything fresh.  And again, that is hard and a lot of bands that lasted that long got stuck in a rut so there's no reason why DT should be singled out for criticism on that count.
Always enjoy your posts RT, but i'm not sure that DT ever truly came up with their own original identifiable sound (and I have all their albums) as opposed to a group like Rush who took their metal and prog influences and forged them into their own original trade mark sound and are still making quality music right up to now, IMO. So it's not a matter of me picking on a band for falling into a rut or getting complacent but of one not being able to meld it's various influences into a  distinct musical identity. Again, all of this my subjective opinion which at the end of the day means scwat! LOL



Well, I think DT certainly has developed a distinctive style of their own.  I think they pushed metal into new directions (which is something I KNOW Metallica did).  However, to me, it seems they have been copying themselves (and other bands) since at least 6 Degrees......possibly even earlier.

Personally, I have encountered DT fans that have come to prog thanks to them.  Sure, some of them never went beyond prog metal, but some did actually discover they liked the old Genesis, Yes, ELP, etc. stuff.  They certainly helped to make the prog genre as a whole more visible to a lot more people.  Sure, they probably didn't add any fans to RPI and RIO and Canterbury, but they certainly elevated the modern prog scene to some extent.
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Points: 2447 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 09:20
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One


I'd actually say that is one of the LEAST prog related songs on that album.  Just my opinion.  And we're supposed to be talking about DT Wink
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

It's a bit of both.  One thing you have to understand is metal dudes think there is no other music like metal on the planet.  Yeah, everything else, be it rock, jazz, classical, funk whatever is grossly inferior.  Therefore, for everything rock does, there has to be a metal equivalent because that is what metalheads are going to listen to.  (And by the way, I refer here to a certain kind of metalhead.  Not all metalheads, including self, are like that).  They don't want Zappa or Sparks, they want Faith No More or Freak Kitchen which is basically the metal equivalent of those bands/artists.  Likewise, they don't want Rush or Yes.  They want a metal equivalent of these bands.  That is the gap that Dream Theater filled in the 90s.  Since there had been no out and out metal band before (Deep Purple/Rainbow don't count, I mean metal influenced by Iron Maiden/Metallica) that relied so much on complex keyboard-guitar interplay, there was a certain freshness to their sound at that time.  Fates Warning was already doing something somewhat on those lines but they were a lot tighter and relied less on long interludes.  DT by incorporating long interludes evoked prog rock a lot more.  In fairness to them, Petrucci's guitarwork was also more inspired at that time and showed more than just flashes of originality.  But after a while, as it happens with so many bands, DT became a formula to endlessly regurgitate for the satisfaction of fans and the 'dream' part of the name receded in relevance.  I mean, it's more like they are dreaming they are still in the 90s, still just released Images & Words.  They aren't really dreaming up anything fresh.  And again, that is hard and a lot of bands that lasted that long got stuck in a rut so there's no reason why DT should be singled out for criticism on that count.
Always enjoy your posts RT, but i'm not sure that DT ever truly came up with their own original identifiable sound (and I have all their albums) as opposed to a group like Rush who took their metal and prog influences and forged them into their own original trade mark sound and are still making quality music right up to now, IMO. So it's not a matter of me picking on a band for falling into a rut or getting complacent but of one not being able to meld it's various influences into a  distinct musical identity. Again, all of this my subjective opinion which at the end of the day means scwat! LOL


Edited by SteveG - June 10 2014 at 09:04
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 08:49
It's no secret I'm not a Dream Theater enthusiast and although I can admire their technical proficiency, I do so with the same lukewarm regard I reserve for the sterile professionalism embodied by my Dentist. However, I've never really bought into the idea that DT provide a portal to the wider compass of Prog for initiates. Apart from the versions of so-called classic Prog tracks on Jordan Rudess solo albums and those covered by DT, I can't see any evidence for anyone sprinting down to a record store to buy all the Genesis, ELP, Yes, Crimson or Gentle Giant that they can afford after hearing a DT album. OK, it might turn a plain vanilla metal-head onto the likes of Rush, Opeth, Tool, Pain of Salvation etc but to my ears, DT is that tattooed chick in the leather pants who works in the library, has a share portfolio but considers gambling abhorrent and deems complete derangement of the senses might be delivered via a double skinny macchiato with croutons.
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Points: 2779 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 05:21
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One


I think the title tracks of Justice and MoP would count too, if One does. Even something like the Four Horsemen, while not as dynamic, has more different sections to it than One.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 01:37
Didn't say they were just copying. Just that at times they have sounded as if they are in a time warp,still in the 90s, having just released Images and with more to come. They didn't respond to changes in the Noughties the way, say, PoS did. And that happens to lots of bands, nothing new.
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Points: 28064 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2014 at 01:05
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

It's a bit of both.  One thing you have to understand is metal dudes think there is no other music like metal on the planet.  Yeah, everything else, be it rock, jazz, classical, funk whatever is grossly inferior.  Therefore, for everything rock does, there has to be a metal equivalent because that is what metalheads are going to listen to.  (And by the way, I refer here to a certain kind of metalhead.  Not all metalheads, including self, are like that).  They don't want Zappa or Sparks, they want Faith No More or Freak Kitchen which is basically the metal equivalent of those bands/artists.  Likewise, they don't want Rush or Yes.  They want a metal equivalent of these bands.  That is the gap that Dream Theater filled in the 90s.  Since there had been no out and out metal band before (Deep Purple/Rainbow don't count, I mean metal influenced by Iron Maiden/Metallica) that relied so much on complex keyboard-guitar interplay, there was a certain freshness to their sound at that time.  Fates Warning was already doing something somewhat on those lines but they were a lot tighter and relied less on long interludes.  DT by incorporating long interludes evoked prog rock a lot more.  In fairness to them, Petrucci's guitarwork was also more inspired at that time and showed more than just flashes of originality.  But after a while, as it happens with so many bands, DT became a formula to endlessly regurgitate for the satisfaction of fans and the 'dream' part of the name receded in relevance.  I mean, it's more like they are dreaming they are still in the 90s, still just released Images & Words.  They aren't really dreaming up anything fresh.  And again, that is hard and a lot of bands that lasted that long got stuck in a rut so there's no reason why DT should be singled out for criticism on that count.

Interesting comments but I don't agree that Dream Theater carried on copying Images and Words. I think their albums certainly up to about Octavarium were distinct in style. Train Of Thought was almost a complete curve ball some might say. I think they got a bit lost after that though. All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.
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