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Guldbamsen ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
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Both Dean, Keishiro and I have talked to Svetonio about this, both in his threads as well as in private. I hope he has come around and maybe now understands better the strains that this infernal continuous suggestion stream has put on the teams.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Chris S ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
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^ Speaks volumes...very poor.Perhaps an admin can tell Svetonio, no bio,album links,no reviews( retrospect), no deal. It does affect the integrity of the site
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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The problem is this
Do you see the pattern? We're not helping anybody - Not the band, because only 2 or 3 albums have a decent number of reviews. - Not the PA visitor, who really doesn't seem to care for this bands. - Not the site, because we have more bands without reviews than ever. But to be honest, what pisses me more is that the guy who suggested all this bands, doesn't have a single review or a rating. That's the main problem IMHO Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 21 2013 at 20:45 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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In other words they should have a web-presence that is not solely created by themselves.
Shouldn't that be enough?
If an artist has a following and/or a fan-base then this web-presence will be there and other sites will create unsolicited content.
I cannot express in words why I think this is missing the point, I know, I've been trying for the past six years to express it. I believe there is a difference between amatuer and aspiring that has nothing to do with any monetary considerations.
Do you mean compared to Metal Music Archives? Encyclopaedia Metallum has 92,000 bands compared to MMA's 13,000? (to PA's 8,000) You cannot compare a Metal site with a Prog site - that's specious.
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Windhawk ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
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For limiting suggestions somewhat, documenting that a band selling their music through Soundcloud or Bandcamp also use other sales channels and/or also have their music available in physical format might eliminate some suggestions.
I do find that the majority of so called Bandcamp bands actually do so however, except some of the free releases. This band for instance, have their album for free on Bandcamp. But visit their facebook page, and you'll see that they have an actual CD to sell too. But it might be an idea to ask those who suggest artists to document that this is the case. Still, it all boils down to whether or not a band wants to be signed I guess. I.e. if they want to sign a contract for a distribution and consignment sales deal with someone or not. A monetary rather than a quality dividing line in terms of how the music business works today. As far as credibility goes - metal archives have 10 times the number of artists that progarchives has. At least 90% of their database will forever lie in the shadows of obscurity. Probably even more. Has this affected the credibility of that site, just to draw a comparison to a similar site? |
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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Chris S ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
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Very well said. I see Olav's point too especially reference Eastern Block bands that fell through the cracks but in terms of Bandcamp suggestions,no, and the number that disappear into obscurity once added to the database with no reviews no current follow up after one album addition. You see with legit valid additions normally there is a history that lends to numerous member's input, review and updates. The vast majority of those have been done and dusted, even controversial additions.So again are they worth it or does it threaten the credibility of the site? I just think some common sense needs to prevail for what it's worth.
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Yeah. Difficult isn't it. Don't make it more difficult. |
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Guldbamsen ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
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I see your logic Olav, but what it would entail would amount to a huge cataloguing site like Discogs, where something like 80 percent of it's listings reside in the shadow.
I don't think there's an upcoming Prog Revolution on the horizon any time soon - the amount of members actually visiting this site has always seemed pretty set to me, that is as far back as I can remember. People come and go, but we're still basically the same amount of users, and I don't see any real proof of them talking about these artists. And personally, I'd like to see the site remain in it's current form - without having to hire all kinds of extra hands who would do nothing but add artists that worldwide maybe 50 people know the names of.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Windhawk ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
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Signed artist - unsigned artist |
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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The site is not here for amateur and unsigned artists. The definition of those has changed with the advent of self-release sites like BandCamp and SoundCloud, amateur and unsigned artist can even have albums sold on Amazon and iTunes now. The PA Mission Statement was never intended to be applied to amateur and unsigned artists, that's why we have this section of the forum - seperate from the PA database.
We do not have to change the mission statement, the additions process or live with a backlog. We need to apply them more rigidly and actually stay on mission.
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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How many suggestions in total? How many rejects?
How many of those did you provide biographies for? How many of those did you provide full discographies for (track listings, track times, musician line-ups, release info)?
How many of those have you written a review for?
Sorry Svetoni, you are too much hard work. You suggest too many bands that do not get added, you overload our teams and do not provide us any information.
Do you not understand that people are complaining about your suggestions?
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Windhawk ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
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The way I regard this situation is a bit different from others I guess. That we have people that suggest many new possible artists that merits a check is for me natural when regarding the following from the bleeding obvious department:
This sites stated vision: PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource. And mission statement: The Prog Archives Web site Project came out from a common dream of a small group of fanatic progressive rock music collectors who decided to develop a WEB SITE for the online progressive rock music community, with the goal of providing extensive Progressive Rock Music information, as well as interaction features for the prog surfers. We have been collecting this DATA for quite some time, but we are far from finished. There are still plenty of old records to be remembered and added to the site, plus all the new creations that are being made. We not only welcome any feedback you may have about the site, but any help you can provide us. We appreciate your support, and your feed back is very important to us, cause we are always looking forward to become... We have a small staff, and all of us have a primary job, so we work our asses off to get the whole thing up and running on our spare time. Whether you are an artist, producer, recording engineer, record label or just a fan and don't see a record that you feel should be in this web page, please contact us. We welcome any chance to improve this site. --- The problem is that the site's internal mechanisms as they are today are too work intensive to handle the influx of suggestions. Which for me suggests that there are three solutions to the problem: Either altering the site's vision and mission statement to regulate the influx of suggestions Or altering the site's internal mechanisms so that the site can function in a manner that enables it to follow up on the vision and mission statement currently active. Or opting to live in a situation with permanent extensive backlogs. This is regarding the situation from a business oriented point of view of course. Much the same as when a business is too successful to cope with incoming orders - you either expand, narrow down your field of interests or tell your customers that there will be an extensive backlog due to high demand. As far as I'm concerned telling some of your customers to take their business elsewhere tends to be a less than optimal solution, but it kind of works as a short term fix - until the next demanding customer comes along. |
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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Svetonio ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
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@Dean
This is the list of the bands and solo artists that added to The Prog Archives of my suggestions at the last 3-4 months. As it may be necessery sometimes that eval process takes longer, I have indicated these my successful suggestions as *suggested earlier* as well. Thought, all of the bands and solo artists on the list are added to PA of my suggestions at the last 3 - 4 months. Maybe I forget to mentioned some band, but I know you'll not mind. 1) No Ticket (crossover prog) 2) Ontofield (crossover prog) 3) Omnipresent (crossover prog) 4) Mark Miller (crossover prog) 5) The Twenty Committee (crossover prog) (suggested earlier) 6) Mother's Cake ( crossover prog) (suggested earlier) 7) Of Sound Mind (crossover prog) (suggested earlier) 8) The Prognosis (crossover prog) 9) Babadag (prog folk) 10) Camelias Garden ( prog folk) (suggested earlier) 11) Xenograft (eclectic) (suggested earlier) 12) Purge Solenoid (eclectic) (suggested earlier) 13) Good NightOwl (eclectic) 14) A Cosmic Trail (heavy prog) 15) Role of the Observer (heavy prog) 16) Atlas Volt (heavy prog) 17) Michael Zucker (heavy prog) (suggested earlier) 18) Cinicism Management (heavy prog) (suggested earlier) 19) Black Market Sorotonin (heavy prog) 20) Means End (progressive metal) 21) Harvest (progressive metal) (suggested earlier) 22) Riddle House (experimental / post metal) 23) Kovlo (post/math) 24) Years Of Rice And Salt ( post/math) (suggested earlier) 25) Sennen (NL) (post/math) (suggested earlier) 26) WhyOceans (post/math) (suggested earlier) 27) Hua Lun (post/math) (suggested earlier) 28) Blim (psyche/space) 29) Mind! (psych/space) 30) In Zaire (psych/space) 31) The Invisible Band! (psych/space) (suggested earlier) 32) One Of These Days & Thee Heavy Random Tone Colour (psych/space) 33) Snovi (psych/space) 34) Fairuz Derin Bulut (psych/space) 35) Napatista (psych/space) 36) The Redlesham Forest Incident ( psych/space) 37) The Outerspace Milkmen (psych/space) 38) Fotosputnik (krautrock) 39) Killed On X-Mass (krautrock) (suggested earlier) 40) Dolorosa (krautrock) (suggested earlier) 41) OnYou (krautrock) (suggested earlier) 42) Goldbug (RIO/avant) 43) Tigress And U-Fraidees (RIO/avant) 44) Ultra Zook (RIO/avant) 45) Ukandanz (RIO/avant) 46) Jinete Azul ( jazz-rock/fusion) 47) Gis Maj Es (jazz-rock/fusion) 48) Mickylee (jazz-rock/fusion) 49) Vanderson (progressive electronic) 50) ComputerChemist (progressive electronic) 51) Neon Leaves (neo prog) Edited by Svetonio - September 21 2013 at 03:17 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Let's be VERY clear here:
We are NOT discussing the Bandcamp recommendations thread. We have no obligation to sift that thread looking for bands. If I find an interesting electro-gothic-techno-thrash-rumba band on Bandcamp I can use that thread to tell the world about them, state why I think they are great and discuss that with other people, I am not suggesting them for evaluation.
We are discussing Bandcamp suggestions made in the Suggest New Bands and Artists lounge.
So, thanks but no thanks.
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Svetonio: Nobody is saying Bandcamp is useless A thread where names are thrown to us with absolutely no information is useless.
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Svetonio ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
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Svetonio ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
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@Ivan
Actually, I said "yes you did it after my suggestion", I didn't mentioned the bandcamp recommendation on Bandcamp thread. Also, the link I posted to proove it, that's the same link what you posted. Yes, before I suggested Via Obscura for Symphonic, I regullary recommended Via Obscura debut album (btw, this is actually the project, not really band) on Bandcamp thread. I said all of this just because you guys think that bandcamp is more or less an useless thing, that I did a bad thing for this site with a lot of "bandcamp bands" and "bedroom magicians" what I suggested, recommended and posted at "Unsigned Bands" forum, while I think that Bandcamp now is THE best service for the new bands and the listeners/buyers who can hear all of the new tendencies in Progressive Rock and, consenquently, I did do so many of nice and accepted suggestions who are based on searching Bandcamp - although not all of my successfuly accepted suggestions went here via Bandcamp.
Edited by Svetonio - September 20 2013 at 03:03 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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NEVER DENIED IT, BUT THE SUGGESTION WAS NOT DONE IN THE BANDCAMP THREAD IT WAS DONE IN A PROPER THREAD CALLED "Via Obscura (Germany) for Symphonic Prog" http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=90239&PID=4643477#4643477If it had been done in the Bandcamp thread, I would not even noticed it, and to be honest, not even cared for it specially after reading the tags that the site made. Of course they were added only after 1.- Verifying it in their own website, and that the band had three years of existence As Dean well said:
That was the case of Via Obscura, they existed outside Bandcamp. 2.- Searching for information about the artist in the web. 3.- Receiving a PM from Finnforest if I'm not wrong 4.- And contacting the band for some info So I insist, IMHO searching the Bandcamp thread is a waste of time, you may find one good band after digging hours. Iván PS: I daily make a search with the word Symphonic, and I check everything that's there, before notifying the team. I never give them a name and expect them to research, I give them all the available info. This is what I gave them in the Symphonic thread
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 20 2013 at 01:57 |
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DamoXt7942 ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Joined: October 15 2008 Location: Okayama, Japan Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
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Tough issue indeed.
I know some bands appearing only upon Bandcamp which are tremendously skilled / professional and well deserved for inclusion into PA, and on the contrary, some under formal contract to labels (including independent ones) which are amateur-ish and no-thank-you in PA (as some Admins / Collabs know, Kazuhiro and I strongly were opposed to an inclusion case which had been done without notice a while before). But hey, we PA have fantastic "Subgenre Evaluation Teams", that can make proper decisions, let me say. As a result, Teams can add artists suitable for PA "with enough info" or "with enough historical background (even if they're obscure)", and cannot add without them. |
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Svetonio ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
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Yes you did it after my suggestion >>> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=90239&KW=via+obscura&PID=4643414#4643414
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