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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 20:01
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:


Why aren't television broadcasts slowing and losing momentum? or telephone conversations? It's all moving over the internet now, even cable television such as FIOS is really just like a web browser behind the scenes - and what differences there are that enables such content to stream without buffering, could be used to deliver music as well, which is far less bandwidth-intensive than video...
 
I also don't believe there is any differentiation between internet phenomena and anything else - newspapers are certainly fizzling out, books, magazines - the internet is rapidly becoming the only means by which people consume media...

I'm just trying to understand your points here - the examples you gave are all relatively small websites that try to monetize their services by nagging people with ads, delayed timers and slow bandwidth - but anyone can get cheap storage and bandwidth from any number of inexpensive webhosts...Ultimately cloud computing will derive profits form advertising, just as television always has, but only more effectively due to its ability to target demographics better...
Those artists who can afford to buy their own webhosts are not really an issue (as far as this thread topic goes), though those webhosts are only inexpensive while the bandwidth used is low, they will still be outnumbered by all the smaller self-release artists who use the one-click hosts. Small independant single product websites are a "find and retreive" operation - users don't want that - they want a one-stop shop - that is why oligarchies rule the internet.
 
In the past 20 years we have seen the number of TV channels increase but the actual original content decrease. Bandwidth is increasing but pot of cash to fund it and the revenue to sustain it is not increasing by the same ratio. In the world of TV shows get cancelled because they don't achieve the right Nielsen ratings which means they are not pulling in enough viewers to please the advertisers. The same thing will happen to the Internet, just by a different mechanism and route. There is no reason to advertise something if no one is buying. 
 
 


Edited by Dean - February 12 2010 at 20:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 18:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The problem I see with this cloud analogy is that it is dynamic - it has to keep moving to stay alive - as data slows and loses momentum it will become exponentially harder to get it moving again - until it reaches the point where it stops moving and simply vanishes. This is more than just the long-term reliability of data storage and many-of-one redundancy (RAID) - this is the media providers actively deleting slow moving data (for example Rapidshare is time limited, SendFile is number-limited, Torrents are seed limited) - they will be wanting to maximise their bandwidth usage to guarantee the greatest return, they will be actively pushing and promoting fast-moving items - they will be dangling the carrot of free-stuff just like Supermarets have loss-leaders to attract the customers, but ultimately they are a for-profit business providing a paid-to-view service. How you pay is up to you.
 
 
This is why Internet phenomena are short lived, like supernova they burn bright and quickly die.


Why aren't television broadcasts slowing and losing momentum? or telephone conversations? It's all moving over the internet now, even cable television such as FIOS is really just like a web browser behind the scenes - and what differences there are that enables such content to stream without buffering, could be used to deliver music as well, which is far less bandwidth-intensive than video...

I also don't believe there is any differentiation between internet phenomena and anything else - newspapers are certainly fizzling out, books, magazines - the internet is rapidly becoming the only means by which people consume media...

I'm just trying to understand your points here - the examples you gave are all relatively small websites that try to monetize their services by nagging people with ads, delayed timers and slow bandwidth - but anyone can get cheap storage and bandwidth from any number of inexpensive webhosts...Ultimately cloud computing will derive profits form advertising, just as television always has, but only more effectively due to its ability to target demographics better...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 18:54
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:


1. Hasn't it always been this way (and worse)? Was it easier for Bach 300 years ago to make his works stand the test of time?
Well, since we know his works some 300 years later I would answer yes to that. The recording medium he used was not as volatile - the written manuscripts have survived and the Well-Tempered Clavier is still in print (ISBN-13: 978-1854726544). Also, even though his music (and Baroque in general) went out of favour soon after his death, but less than 50 years later the composers of the Classical period (Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn etc) were all "fans" because his manuscripts were still accessible to them.
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

2. So what if music disappears. If no one is interested, is that such a bad thing? Isn't this cleansing mechanism, in fact, an answer to your first post?
This cleansing method would be arbitrary and non-selective and not quite what I had in mind. Having no one is interested in the music does not mean it is poor music, we could lose the world's greatest album of all time by that method simply because the artist was not very good at promoting himself and still praise the most generic piece of rubbish ever produced as being magnificent just because we believed the word-of-mouth hype, much of which was fabricated by payola, fake street teams, spamming and clever marketting.
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:


Sometime ago, I saw an interesting talk by Jimmy Wales who's the founder of Wikipedia. WP is run by a number of enthusiast. He often gets asked how they maintain the integrity of the site when practically anyone can edit it. The answer is that there's enough users who are serious and active in keeping it clean. They believe in it. The analogy to what we're discussing here is that, I think if music is good enough, it will stand the test of time because it will be kept alive by people. The media it is stored on is less important.
Wikipedia is unique in that poor articles, plagiarisms and acts of vandalism disappear very quickly because of the way in which the hierarchy of editors work within the system. The method forces a professional approach in the writers and an acceptable quality standard in both how they write and factual accuracy of what they write. Entries get constantly amended, updated and re-written - each wikipedia entry is a work in progress.
 
... in self-released music you don't get that - the music is presented as a finished work, and is accepted or discarded "as is" - there is no peer review or team of editors correcting and amending it. If some of the album is good and some is bad then that is how it stays.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 14:33
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 11:26
^ Yahoo also wiped out Yahoo Blogs, but at least they sent a notice to all users asking them to back up before it happens. Still they suck for doing this.

I somehow missed the Live Prog blog, I'll check it out Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 11:23
PS: there is a perverse irony in the fact that since starting this Blog 13 days ago the free webhost I use to "promote" my own amateur self-releases [oxyhost.com] has become increasingly unreliable, to the point where it is currently unusable Ouch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 11:07
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I'm a natural pessimist so a bad flip-chart is never going to convince me of anything. Word-of-mouth perpetuated the success of Part The Second, but it did not start it - without the initial impetus given by their prior history and Toby Driver's (cult) status that word of mouth would not have propagated far. If KD only drew 100 people at their London gig then that was result of venue size rather than low popularity - Blue Lambency Downward was available in every HMV I looked in when it was released.
 

My view is the perfect opposite: they have a cult following and their album albums are well distributed, still they couldn't fill a club in London (!). That makes them pretty underground to me.
That's more an indictment of stay-at-home fans (and the subject of my previous Blog: Live Prog-rock is Dying) Wink
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

...and that is basically my point - you have to do something. Just sitting back and assuming this data will last for ever is a mistake.


It always was like that, just the speed of the process is indeed higher. From my own experience the CD is the medium with the longest life expectation. My cassettes and vinyls are the best example for me. But if we speak of digital releases...
Like vinyl, glass pressed CDs (and DVDs) are a mechanical format so the data they contain will not degrade, however the aluminium layer that reflects the read-laser is prone to degradation (so called CD rot) if the seal between the acrylic and the aluminium is porous - the predicted lifespan of CD is anything between 10 and 50 years. CDRs are an electronic format - the data is burnt into a dye layer - over time the data will degrade through exposure to light - no one in the data storage business will rate CDR more than 2 years - I'm sure all of us can recount stories of CDs and CDRs that play on one system but not on another, or of CDs that now skip and stick even though there is nothing apparently wrong with them physically. The next hurdle to overcome for CD to last another 26 years is for the transports (ie players) to still be available - has anyone got a 1984 Sony or Philips CD player still in working order? If downloads replace CD in the near future (as is currently predicted) then the player will last a few years after that, but forever? No.
 
Magnetic media is the best and the worse - tapes and cassettes are notoriously bad because they are very vulnerable to physical damage and suffers from sticky shed syndrome where the tape, glue and oxide start to degrade within a few years. Magnetic discs and tapes are hit worse by obsolescence - I've got music stored on mini disc, DAT and Zip-discs - all of it currently unreadable - I've music source files stored on 5¼", 3½" and 3" floppy discs ... none of those drive formats ship on the latest PCs and MACs (and that's without even mentioning 8" floppies, Bernoulli drives and all the faith IT experts put into backing up onto tape streamers a few years back) - I've already mentioned the planned obsolescence of PATA drives, then there is SCSI - try finding a SCSI IDE card for a PC now (or even USB to SCSI) - so what of SATA in 5 years time, or eSATA. Apple dropped FireWire a few years back, and now the iPad has lost USB - the shape of Apple's to come I think with everything going wireless. PCMCIA is history and the IDE bus is being phased out - it is all well and good having the media and the media transports, but if your computer cannot interface to them then they are as good as lost. Aside from all the 8-track and BetaMax jokes, how many of us have boxes full of VHS tapes and nothing to play them on but a 15 year old VCR? How reliable is your current CD/DVD player? Will that still work in 15 years?
 
The only way to protect your data is to keep it moving, continually copying it from old media to new media - that is why I said data storage is dynamic - you have to keep refreshing it.
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
If an album gets forgotten it will disappear 10 times quicker in electronic form than ever it did in hard-copy. When a file can be deleted irrevocably at the click of mouse, or by a malicious virus, or simply by a hardware failure, or by an OS crash that's one thing, but when finding or recovering that data relies on something as tenuous as the Internet then it becomes even more ephemeral since the data is only as permanent as the server it is stored on and the links to it.

 


... then you are very correct and this is a very important issue. I've witnessed the death of much online information due to dead links, unpaid hosting, lack of interest of the initial source.
Not just that - remember AOL home pages? Switched off on a corporate whim, wiping out thousands of non-profit making amateur homepages over-night - not just personal websites, but hundreds of small businesses, authors, artists and musicians who were using the "free" resource (that they paid for as part of their monthy fee) to publicise themselves but not earn a penny for Time-Warner-AOL. Anyone still got a GeoCities site? Or a Yahoo site? A Batcave site? You cannot trust third-party hosts to protect or guarantee your precious data - Flicker? PhotoBucket? deviantART? Has anyone got a written guarantee from them that their data will be accessible tomorrow, next week, next year? What of MySpace, LastFM and Facebook? How long will they last before they are superseded by the next big fad? The internet is an alien landscape for us, we like stability, for things to stay where we put them, but the internet isn't like that, it's just not built that way.
 
 
...Right, this all sounds a long way from Self-released albums and the woes of small independent artists trying to promote themselves in a sea of similar sounding and similar looking releases, but the complacency is the same - the naïve assumption that the new way is the better way and the future will last forever is building the same house of cards as the old way, but on far shakier ground.
 
 


Edited by Dean - February 12 2010 at 11:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 08:38
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I'm a natural pessimist so a bad flip-chart is never going to convince me of anything. Word-of-mouth perpetuated the success of Part The Second, but it did not start it - without the initial impetus given by their prior history and Toby Driver's (cult) status that word of mouth would not have propagated far. If KD only drew 100 people at their London gig then that was result of venue size rather than low popularity - Blue Lambency Downward was available in every HMV I looked in when it was released.
 



My view is the perfect opposite: they have a cult following and their album albums are well distributed, still they couldn't fill a club in London (!). That makes them pretty underground to me.


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

...and that is basically my point - you have to do something. Just sitting back and assuming this data will last for ever is a mistake.


It always was like that, just the speed of the process is indeed higher. From my own experience the CD is the medium with the longest life expectation. My cassettes and vinyls are the best example for me. But if we speak of digital releases...


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
If an album gets forgotten it will disappear 10 times quicker in electronic form than ever it did in hard-copy. When a file can be deleted irrevocably at the click of mouse, or by a malicious virus, or simply by a hardware failure, or by an OS crash that's one thing, but when finding or recovering that data relies on something as tenuous as the Internet then it becomes even more ephemeral since the data is only as permanent as the server it is stored on and the links to it.

 


... then you are very correct and this is a very important issue. I've witnessed the death of much online information due to dead links, unpaid hosting, lack of interest of the initial source.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 04:41
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

I believe that ultimately all of the data and media we consume will be "in the cloud". On-demand streaming in various forms is the future - why should music be any different than television, other than being more portable?

In this way, digital formats will become transparent to end-users - they will simply turn on a device and click on a song...Media providers will then be the gatekeepers as people become more separated from manipulating and storing files themselves...

Agree totally. Further in the future, I see this "cloud" being ubiquitous, that is, music, art, movies, photos and all other information will be available to everyone at any time and place through the use of modern technology. There are already some quite interesting prototypes being developed.
The problem I see with this cloud analogy is that it is dynamic - it has to keep moving to stay alive - as data slows and loses momentum it will become exponentially harder to get it moving again - until it reaches the point where it stops moving and simply vanishes. This is more than just the long-term reliability of data storage and many-of-one redundancy (RAID) - this is the media providers actively deleting slow moving data (for example Rapidshare is time limited, SendFile is number-limited, Torrents are seed limited) - they will be wanting to maximise their bandwidth usage to guarantee the greatest return, they will be actively pushing and promoting fast-moving items - they will be dangling the carrot of free-stuff just like Supermarets have loss-leaders to attract the customers, but ultimately they are a for-profit business providing a paid-to-view service. How you pay is up to you.
 
 
This is why Internet phenomena are short lived, like supernova they burn bright and quickly die.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 04:36
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 04:30
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

...and that is basically my point - you have to do something. Just sitting back and assuming this data will last for ever is a mistake.
 
If an album gets forgotten it will disappear 10 times quicker in electronic form than ever it did in hard-copy. When a file can be deleted irrevocably at the click of mouse, or by a malicious virus, or simply by a hardware failure, or by an OS crash that's one thing, but when finding or recovering that data relies on something as tenuous as the Internet then it becomes even more ephemeral since the data is only as permanent as the server it is stored on and the links to it.
 
The Internet is that transient. If M@X decides tomorrow that the PA is a waste of his time and money and switches it off, then it will be gone - sayonara - goodnight Vienna - so long and thanks for the fish - Elvis has left the building - there is no mirror, no backup, no hard-copy (and don't rely on the WayBackMachine to recover your lost album reviews).

A very valid point about volatile media. The answer to the problem, as you who are in the business know, is redundancy. The obvious advantage of digital info is that it doesn't degrade with time (though the media does). So in fact, digital info is likelier to survive IF the concepts of redundancy are followed.

There probably are quite a few small vinyl pressings that have been lost forever in time ...

On a side-note, are you saying that PA is not backed up? Shocked
It is backed up internally, but if M@X pulls the plug then that internal back-up will not be accessible to anyone except him. Basically the whole fate of the PA is in the hands of one man. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 04:27
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 04:26
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 04:10
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

There is indeed much to be said for charging a price - at some point in the exchange - for what you're offering.  I believe it was the Joker who said "Never do anything you do well for free."  He was right, and there's something fundamental about how people judge things upfront that is reflected in its cost.  A free sample is one thing but to habitually give away your work suggests, rightly or wrongly, a lack of confidence and exclusivity. People expect to pay for something good, and they will.
Agree to some extent, but there's more to it nowadays. Example: I can't charge money for the air that you breathe even if it's good clean air (not yet at least). Why? Because it is plentiful and requires no human labor. Digital distribution does the same thing to music (and other information). It makes it plentiful and requires no human labor (once infrastructure is set up) and people just seem less keen on paying for that.
One theory is that even though there was a lot of labor involved in making the music in the first place, consumers become alienated towards this process because there is no physical product to relate to the work.


I hear you, plus musicians - like writers, painters - are notoriously bad businesspeople (myself included) and seem content if their music is owned by anyone, let alone if they were paid for it





Edited by Atavachron - February 12 2010 at 04:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 04:07
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 04:06
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
I've owned computers since 1978 and disaster recovery is in my job-description. 2003 is recent history - your PC is probably running Windows XP - that's still current (just) - what about PCs running 311, OS2 or CP/M-86? Can you still access those? What happens to your data when Microsoft depricates FAT32 hard-drives or IDE? If your PC dies in the next five years you'll be hard pushed to find anything that will take a PATA drive - and I'm talking about recovering data in 30 to 40 years time. Technology is moving quicker than data.


I know nothing else than that if I have to upgrade something in order to keep my data then I will. Why keep me out of this equation? Tongue
...and that is basically my point - you have to do something. Just sitting back and assuming this data will last for ever is a mistake.
 
If an album gets forgotten it will disappear 10 times quicker in electronic form than ever it did in hard-copy. When a file can be deleted irrevocably at the click of mouse, or by a malicious virus, or simply by a hardware failure, or by an OS crash that's one thing, but when finding or recovering that data relies on something as tenuous as the Internet then it becomes even more ephemeral since the data is only as permanent as the server it is stored on and the links to it.
 
The Internet is that transient. If M@X decides tomorrow that the PA is a waste of his time and money and switches it off, then it will be gone - sayonara - goodnight Vienna - so long and thanks for the fish - Elvis has left the building - there is no mirror, no backup, no hard-copy (and don't rely on the WayBackMachine to recover your lost album reviews).
 
 


Edited by Dean - February 12 2010 at 04:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 03:53
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 03:42
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Part 2 - There Goes My Everything
 
With everybody and their auntie releasing music without the restrictions imposed by financial limitations what becomes popular and what receives widest recognition is purely at the whim of the buyer. Of course those buyer can still be manipulated, the question now is by whom and for what ends.
 
Already we are seeing the rise of corporate download sites like iTunes and Amazon, when the "market" is awash with millions of self-release albums those businesses are going to start wielding their power more and will dictate who sells and who doesn't, and from that, who they list and who they don't. Because while it may appear that selling a million downloads is the same whether for a thousand artists or a million, it is not. There is less overhead costs involved in paying a thousand artists than a million (it's a thousand times cheaper to be exact), so it is still in their best financial interests to have a few really big selling downloads than lots of poor selling ones - there is simply more profit in it that way.
 
Free-issue is not the solution here, nor is it a bypass of the problem. Unlike free audio-streams which removes the cost and replaces it with the true value of what is on offer, (assuming that a proportion of steam listeners are converted into download buyers), free-releases removes any viable consumer feedback (an essential part of "public performance") so the count of the number of downloads is not a measure of the worth. Similarly since the artist has no direct way of knowing whether the download was enjoyed or discarded it is also valueless. (and no - cost, worth and value are not the same thing). If all an artist is interested in is the respect, consideration and approval of their "public" then there has to be a way of gauging that or the exercise is pointless.
 
The other issue with free-releases is the use of one-click hosting sites like Rapidshare and YouSendIt that provide the infrastructure to support self-release downloads. All these sites are commercial, either funded by membership revenue or by advertising sales and you don't get anything for nothing, even in the internet. As much as the artist tries to run away from big business, while there is money to be made the artist is a prime target for exploitation and they will get exploited. And let's face it, by giving the files to download for nothing the artist is already allowing themselves to be exploited. At the moment the adverts are essentially passive - the "buyer" can block or ignore them, but if the advertisers are not getting a return for their money then they will go elsewhere and the one-clicks will change their business model to recover their costs and losses - one possible solution is that the adverts will cease to be passive.
 
While there appears to be no room for the major labels in this vision of tomorrow, don't write off the big boys just yet. They will change, and they will enter the "self-release" market, just as they entered the Indie market (how many Indie labels are truly independent?), and when they do they will sweep away all the cottage-industry small fry [in truth the big-boys invented self-release 40 years ago - Apple Corps, Swan Song, Purple, Manticore, Threshold - while being "vanity" labels for major artists on major labels, they were also essentially corporately funded self-release labels]. There is simply too much money at stake for them to roll-over and play dead, once the learn they cannot beat the new system, they will adapt to it and regardless of the noble ideals of a few artists, there will be plenty more who will happily take the corporate dollar.
 
No great albums will ever be discovered by word-of-mouth promotion since will only carry the message so far, like ripples on a pond the message will dissipate and weaken the further it travels from the source. Social networking is transitory and fleeting, it simply does not have the persistence or long-term stability to grow anything more than a one-hit wonder with a half-life recorded in weeks not years. In fact nothing on the internet has any longevity - nothing stored on your hard-drive on your PC has any longevity, nothing you can transfer to CDR will survive more than a few years - the electronic world is a dynamic medium that needs to be constantly refreshed or it vanishes. Vinyl has a longer shelf-life than any electronic recording and look how rare and obscure some of that material has become in 30 years - for the internet that figure could be as low as 3 years and for some self-released albums, 3 days...
 
If a song, piece of music or album has any measure of greatness then it deserves to be remembered long into the future and as the future stands at the moment I can't see how that works.
 
we should of kept vinyl pressings. It was a great format. Why did we change?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 03:38
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Was maudlin of the Well an unknown before then? Was Part The Second their first release? Didn Kayo Dot keep them "in the public eye" between their 3rd album and this one? Sorry, this was not a word-of-mouth success.


It's good to discuss things in theory but if we do have a real case let's not waste it even if it's not perfectly adequate to the theory. Of course it's not a perfect flip-chart example but flip charts do not always match reality either. Smile
I've seen promotion for Part The Second over the internet and it was all word of mouth. I got the news from PA and tried the album because I usually try free downloads promoted on PA. Then I recommended the album to my friend Maria, who already knew the band due to word of mouth as can be seen here: http://caffeineandmusic.wordpress.com/2009/02/21/maudlin-of-the-well/ She blogged about Part The Second too. http://caffeineandmusic.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/part-the-second/
Of course Maudlin Of The Well and Kayo Dot are not completely unknown bands but as Kayo Dot drawn less than 100 people to their concert in London I can say they should be considered in our discussion even if not complying 100% to the pure self-release scenario.
I'm a natural pessimist so a bad flip-chart is never going to convince me of anything. Word-of-mouth perpetuated the success of Part The Second, but it did not start it - without the initial impetus given by their prior history and Toby Driver's (cult) status that word of mouth would not have propagated far. If KD only drew 100 people at their London gig then that was result of venue size rather than low popularity - Blue Lambency Downward was available in every HMV I looked in when it was released.
 
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halabalushindigus View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 03:32
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I agree. Saving up your money to buy a piece of music means that music is special. It wouln't be the same if it were offered for free. The musical value equals the dollar sentiment

assume the power 1586/14.3
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