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topofsm 
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 Posted: July 28 2009 at 20:21 |
 amjch70 wrote:
I think some people here will hate me, but I don’t think Porcupine Tree is a progressive band. Don’t get me wrong, PT is one of my favorite bands but I don’t think it’s a prog band. Just my opinion. |
You know, I tend to agree, though I haven't heard PT's earlier work, which I hear is quite psychedelic. Their latest outputs are clearly alternative rock IMO, with a decent amount of leaning towards prog. The thing is, I find recent PT output much like Nine Inch Nails, which as one of my favorite bands ever are also clearly not prog. However, had NIN emerged in the same scene as PT instead of the mainstream alternative rock/grunge one in the early nineties, I believe their credibility as prog would be just as much as Porcupine Tree
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amjch70
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Joined: December 21 2008
Location: Costa Rica
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 20:07 |
I think some people here will hate
me, but I don’t think Porcupine Tree is a progressive band. Don’t get me wrong,
PT is one of my favorite bands but I don’t think it’s a prog band. Just my
opinion.
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Twirling round with this familiar parable.
Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this
chance to be alive and breathing
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Fieldofsorrow
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 220
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 15:24 |
Opeth require a lot of patience, I believe. It's progressive, mainly, because they have their own very distinct sound. But yes, I think you are under the wrong topic. 
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Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband
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Tsevir Leirbag
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Joined: May 03 2009
Location: Montréal
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Points: 8321
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 15:20 |
Okay, you're probably in the wrong topic, but It's okay anyway  Opeth is DEFINITELY a GREAT band. Listen to the whole Damnation album, or Face of Melinda (on Still Life) if you just heard the growling vocals and that's what you don't like.  * When I started to listen to Opeth, I had a problem with their growling vocals ('cause I don't really like growling, it's just not my thing) but now I can really enjoy them, you'll know what I mean!
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Les mains, les pieds balancés
Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers,
Un marin mort,
Il dormira
- Paul Éluard
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LanCaiHe
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Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 14:57 |
Maybe I"m under the wrong topic, but I've only now heard, over and over again, about this band Opeth. I went and listened to a bunch of their stuff on Youtube. Sorry to say, I don't see it as prog at all. I can hardly stomach it. It's boring as all hell. Just my opinionof course. If they spent half as much time playing as they do shaking their hair around, maybe they would play something worthwhile. 
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Jim
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 13:38 |
King Friso! Well said! 
kingfriso wrote:
moshkito wrote:
kingfriso wrote:
In the classic '70 progressive period the word Progressive wasn't used concerning music. Now the term is used, a lot of bands don't turn out to be so progressive... this is quite a puzzling problem |
The term did not begin to make itself "known" or "used" until the mid-eighties and probably later.
It was not "prog" then and it is not "prog" now ... the only thing that separated these musicians fro pop music, was that they had a lot less of an interest in "pop music" than they did in the scholarly desire to do something better with their instruments than play crap and cheap pop music, most of which takes absolutely no talent to play at all.
Combined with the fact that the majority of those musicians were really educated and knowledgeable about music it is no surprise that they would want to create a "poem", a "symphony", a "lieder" ... and not something that is called "prog" ...
No one, in their right mind sets out to play ... "prog" ... they will be dead before the first album is out! Not to mention trashed senseless in this area since no one even knows what it is ... why would someone create music just because of one "style"? ... that is not even what making music is all about at all! |
One can be interested in a certain music scene or mindset. Since most musicians listen to music themselves and are influenced by other musicians, it isn't a strange fenomonan that styles came to exististence. I do think a lot of musicians (one of them is me) still greatly admire the bands of the progressive period for their groundbraking work on rockmusic. Who wouldn't want to join this search for the undiscovered possibilities of music? And if this mindset is called 'prog', then so be it. |
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Jim
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friso
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 2506
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 13:25 |
moshkito wrote:
kingfriso wrote:
In the classic '70 progressive period the word Progressive wasn't used concerning music. Now the term is used, a lot of bands don't turn out to be so progressive... this is quite a puzzling problem |
The term did not begin to make itself "known" or "used" until the mid-eighties and probably later.
It was not "prog" then and it is not "prog" now ... the only thing that separated these musicians fro pop music, was that they had a lot less of an interest in "pop music" than they did in the scholarly desire to do something better with their instruments than play crap and cheap pop music, most of which takes absolutely no talent to play at all.
Combined with the fact that the majority of those musicians were really educated and knowledgeable about music it is no surprise that they would want to create a "poem", a "symphony", a "lieder" ... and not something that is called "prog" ...
No one, in their right mind sets out to play ... "prog" ... they will be dead before the first album is out! Not to mention trashed senseless in this area since no one even knows what it is ... why would someone create music just because of one "style"? ... that is not even what making music is all about at all! |
One can be interested in a certain music scene or mindset. Since most musicians listen to music themselves and are influenced by other musicians, it isn't a strange fenomonan that styles came to exististence. I do think a lot of musicians (one of them is me) still greatly admire the bands of the progressive period for their groundbraking work on rockmusic. Who wouldn't want to join this search for the undiscovered possibilities of music? And if this mindset is called 'prog', then so be it.
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LanCaiHe
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Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 17:12 |
Yes, bands like Yes and ELP sold out arenas in the 70's! Imagine thousands of teens listening to Keith Emerson play a combo of jazz and classical music on a grand piano! Something that may never be seen again!
lucas wrote:
LanCaiHe wrote:
Prog isn't very popular though is it? |
Wasn't prog popular in the seventies ?
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Jim
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
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Location: France
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 15:40 |
LanCaiHe wrote:
Prog isn't very popular though is it? |
Wasn't prog popular in the seventies ?
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Tsevir Leirbag
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Joined: May 03 2009
Location: Montréal
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 15:05 |
King By-Tor wrote:
Personally I felt that Fear Of A Blank Planet really needed a good 4-minute rocker. |
Maybe... Even if the album's very good the way it is.
Who said that? I did'nt!
moshkito wrote:
ProGR72 wrote:
Sometimes, I think there are prog songs (made by prog bands), that are not prog. Most of the time, I don't like it because it sounds commercial or even really like popular music.
What do you think about it?/What are the "non-prog" prog songs that you like/you dislike? |
If you are going to listen to ANY band ... and all you want to hear is some "prog song/composition" ... I highly recommend that you stop listening to any music ... and go play in a band yourself!
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King By-Tor wrote:
And let's not forget that one pop song on an album does not immediately ruin a good prog album completely, people.  |
And that is a personnal attack, you don't know what I listen to. I'm NOT "programmed", to use your words, and I don't listen to "only one thing".
moshkito wrote:
Are you so programmed that you have to listen to only one thing? Not the person behind it?
Sad ... sad ...
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Edited by ProGR72 - July 27 2009 at 15:27
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Les mains, les pieds balancés
Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers,
Un marin mort,
Il dormira
- Paul Éluard
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 12:54 |
Sorry to differ with you, but at least in my hometown in the 70's we did refer to ELP, Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, etc. as "Progressive Rock." It might be different where you are from. I've only in the last 5 years or so heard it referred to as Prog. But I do agree with you! 
moshkito wrote:
kingfriso wrote:
In the classic '70 progressive period the word Progressive wasn't used concerning music. Now the term is used, a lot of bands don't turn out to be so progressive... this is quite a puzzling problem |
The term did not begin to make itself "known" or "used" until the mid-eighties and probably later.
It was not "prog" then and it is not "prog" now ... the only thing that separated these musicians fro pop music, was that they had a lot less of an interest in "pop music" than they did in the scholarly desire to do something better with their instruments than play crap and cheap pop music, most of which takes absolutely no talent to play at all.
Combined with the fact that the majority of those musicians were really educated and knowledgeable about music it is no surprise that they would want to create a "poem", a "symphony", a "lieder" ... and not something that is called "prog" ...
No one, in their right mind sets out to play ... "prog" ... they will be dead before the first album is out! Not to mention trashed senseless in this area since no one even knows what it is ... why would someone create music just because of one "style"? ... that is not even what making music is all about at all! |
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Jim
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 12:50 |
Everything is formulaic no matter what musical style you are writing in. If a classical composer writes a Sonata, he is using a formula, if he writes a fugue, etc. It's all a "form". Pop music is the same way. Everything has a musical form.
I can only tell you what I think based on my own experiences of growing up as a teen in the seventies and listening to progressive rock back then in Pittsburgh, PA. I don't know what it was like in other parts of the world, or the US for that matter.
First thing is that back then we DID call it PROGRESSIVE ROCK. That was the term, and we definitely said it all the time. What is more "now" is the term "PROG". We did not use that term back in the 70's.
For me, (and I'm sure many people will disagree with me here), you can narrow prog down to a few main characteristics, and I've heard this repeated by others as well.
1. Prog is based, usually, on Western Classical music and not the blues. Not that it cannot have those elements since it grew out of rock, but it has much more in common with Western classical music.
2. The songs are longer than the usual 3 minute wonders you hear on popular radio.
3. The songs have lyrics about more lofty, or not, subjects other than "I love your lips, love your thighs...they make me high" kinda stuff! ;-)
4. People are allowed to show off their individual musical skills.
I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to follow or at least use those rules for a stepping stone if they were going to write a prog tune? I love 20 minute epics! Yes I agree that it does not make it good, but many who write 3 minute songs cannot write either. I do understand what you are saying, and sure, if you don't have the technique to write and play something of that magnitude you are better off not doing it.
akin wrote:
I think many modern prog bands fail at trying to be "all prog", which means to make songs with the prog clichés just to fit to the genre (and it applies to bands in other genres as well, but to a smaller extent). There were many prog bands with songs no longer than 5 minutes and hardly any time change, but they are prog because they sound alike other prog bands and were lumped in the same genre for commercial purposes. Unfortunately, prog has become synonym of 20-minute epics, multi-part suites and long solos for many, so many bands think that putting together 20-minutes of music with long solos and time changes is to be a great prog composer, when sometimes it is to be a terrible music composer.
After all, music is just an arrangement of sounds that are pleasing to hear. But when it comes to music market, it is not rare to see bands that "sell out" or are obliged to do something just for selling more or fitting to a niche. Then, we have both the musicians that are creative but do something more formulaic and predictable to sell more and musicians who do not have talent to do music of an specific genre but incorporate many elements artificially just to say that his music fits that genre and fit to a niche. |
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Jim
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akin
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Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 12:06 |
I think many modern prog bands fail at trying to be "all prog", which means to make songs with the prog clichés just to fit to the genre (and it applies to bands in other genres as well, but to a smaller extent). There were many prog bands with songs no longer than 5 minutes and hardly any time change, but they are prog because they sound alike other prog bands and were lumped in the same genre for commercial purposes. Unfortunately, prog has become synonym of 20-minute epics, multi-part suites and long solos for many, so many bands think that putting together 20-minutes of music with long solos and time changes is to be a great prog composer, when sometimes it is to be a terrible music composer.
After all, music is just an arrangement of sounds that are pleasing to hear. But when it comes to music market, it is not rare to see bands that "sell out" or are obliged to do something just for selling more or fitting to a niche. Then, we have both the musicians that are creative but do something more formulaic and predictable to sell more and musicians who do not have talent to do music of an specific genre but incorporate many elements artificially just to say that his music fits that genre and fit to a niche.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 18063
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 11:02 |
kingfriso wrote:
In the classic '70 progressive period the word Progressive wasn't used concerning music. Now the term is used, a lot of bands don't turn out to be so progressive... this is quite a puzzling problem |
The term did not begin to make itself "known" or "used" until the mid-eighties and probably later.
It was not "prog" then and it is not "prog" now ... the only thing that separated these musicians fro pop music, was that they had a lot less of an interest in "pop music" than they did in the scholarly desire to do something better with their instruments than play crap and cheap pop music, most of which takes absolutely no talent to play at all.
Combined with the fact that the majority of those musicians were really educated and knowledgeable about music it is no surprise that they would want to create a "poem", a "symphony", a "lieder" ... and not something that is called "prog" ...
No one, in their right mind sets out to play ... "prog" ... they will be dead before the first album is out! Not to mention trashed senseless in this area since no one even knows what it is ... why would someone create music just because of one "style"? ... that is not even what making music is all about at all!
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StyLaZyn
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Location: United States
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 10:34 |
Blacksword wrote:
Ha! I think their best album is 'A Trick of the Tail' |
That's pretty much the case with me too.
However, there was some Gabriel-era Genesis that was not Prog as well.
Examples: Time Table I Know What I Like Harlequin
Edited by StyLaZyn - July 27 2009 at 10:37
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 10:28 |
So True. I guess that's why I joined the band I belong to now. When writing for our new CD I asked the leader if hethought the old fans will like it or not, he replied...write what you want. You simply cannot please everyone and why should you try to. You should try to please yourself first.
moshkito wrote:
ProGR72 wrote:
Sometimes, I think there are prog songs (made by prog bands), that are not prog. Most of the time, I don't like it because it sounds commercial or even really like popular music.
What do you think about it?/What are the "non-prog" prog songs that you like/you dislike? |
If you are going to listen to ANY band ... and all you want to hear is some "prog song/composition" ... I highly recommend that you stop listening to any music ... and go play in a band yourself!
You are placing your expectations on other people and expecting them to play what you want to hear and see. And there is no one out there, man or woman, that will do that ... no one, even in "prog-land" is doing something just for you, or anyone else ... it is totally IMPOSSIBLE to saitisfy an audience like that ... period.
You must understand this, and see why is it that we have a thread in here where people got upset when Genesis told off some idiot fan, and other examples. You can not, satisfy everyone!
And please, stop expecting people to serve you with grapes and Playboy models ... when you get that rich adn that far, go ahead and make your own band and maybe we will listen to it ... and mandate that you play a "prog-song" ... and then watch the fanzines and everyone else drop you like a hot potato.
You have to take a stand, and it is not a fan department to take that stand ... you are either a musician and an artist, or a fan ... |
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Jim
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 10:07 |
ProGR72 wrote:
Sometimes, I think there are prog songs (made by prog bands), that are not prog. Most of the time, I don't like it because it sounds commercial or even really like popular music.
What do you think about it?/What are the "non-prog" prog songs that you like/you dislike? |
If you are going to listen to ANY band ... and all you want to hear is some "prog song/composition" ... I highly recommend that you stop listening to any music ... and go play in a band yourself!
You are placing your expectations on other people and expecting them to play what you want to hear and see. And there is no one out there, man or woman, that will do that, I'm not sure that it is even possible at all !!! ... no one, not even in "prog-land" is doing something just for you, or anyone else ... it is totally IMPOSSIBLE to saitisfy an audience like that ... period.
You must understand this, and see why is it that we have a thread in here where people got upset when Genesis told off some idiot fan, and other examples. You can not, satisfy everyone!
And please, stop expecting people to serve you with grapes and Playboy models ... when you get that rich adn that far, go ahead and make your own band and maybe we will listen to it ... and mandate that you play a "prog-song" ... and then watch the fanzines and everyone else drop you like a hot potato.
You have to take a stand, and it is not a fan department to take that stand ... you are either a musician and an artist, or a fan ...
Now, you must decide if you want to listen to "MUSIC" ... or just some silly idea like pop, rock, prog, metal ... a commercial division that is designed to help you find the stuff that sounds the same ... so you can go spend you dollars on it!
You have to decide if the musicians you want to listen to are morons or intelligent ... which ones are in there for the "hit" to get your attention, and which ones are in there ... for the music and the love of the music ... and it's not about "prog" .. it's about how they can and want to express themselves.
There are times when a song or two will sound less interesting to your ear because it is in one scale and has 16 bars and repeats like a simple song ... so what?
Are you so programmed that you have to listen to only one thing? Not the person behind it?
Sad ... sad ...
(Sorry, the tone is not angry, just trying to be clear so you can see why some musicians get upset when people get angry at them for doing a hit ... !)
Edited by moshkito - July 27 2009 at 10:29
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CPicard
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 09:42 |
LanCaiHe wrote:
Prog isn't very popular though is it?
CPicard wrote:
Pop, a stupid music?
Should I remind you that "Pop music" only means "Popular music" in opposition to savant music? Progressive rock is part of Pop music.
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Doesn't "popular" come from the same roots as "people"? It's like "folk music": the music coming from... Well, folks. If I'm not wrong, the English word "folk" shares roots with the German word "volk". It's the same thing with "popular", "population", "people"... English words coming from the French linguage.
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 08:58 |
Actually we did use the term progressive rock back in the 70's when we talked about Gentle Giant and ELP. We also used the terms Art rock, Classical Rock as well. I guess it's hard to use categories to define things nowadays because everyone insists so much on putting stuff in little boxes.
kingfriso wrote:
In the classic '70 progressive period the word Progressive wasn't used concerning music. Now the term is used, a lot of bands don't turn out to be so progressive... this is quite a puzzling problem |
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Jim
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 08:56 |
I just think that music that is written by a formula in order to match another formula that is used purely for the purpose of making money is stupid. Of course this is just my opinion. When money becomes the prime driving force, real art and creativity goes out the window. 
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Jim
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Prog's not prog.
