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superprog
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 07 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1354 |
Posted: November 15 2006 at 20:45 | |
Terje Rypdal!!! love the guy's work............Waves is my fav album of his but not sure if you can call it Jazz Rock per se. Yeah, i think Jazz Rock Fusion adequately and simply describes an album like that.......
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BePinkTheater
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 01 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1381 |
Posted: November 15 2006 at 18:53 | |
So why exactly isn't Miles in the archives?
If not in the Jazz rock section (which he should be in...) at least the proto prog.
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I can strangle a canary in a tin can and it would be really original, but that wouldn't save it from sounding like utter sh*t.
-Stone Beard |
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer Joined: March 08 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2459 |
Posted: November 15 2006 at 16:48 | |
Still, on the whole Terje Rypdal seems to belong here even more than Pat Metheny (whom I also love). Let's see if we can officially recommend him...
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Jimbo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 28 2005 Location: Helsinki Status: Offline Points: 2818 |
Posted: November 15 2006 at 16:12 | |
^ Just borrowed Waves by Terje Rypdal from the library last week. Excellent album! Not sure would I call it prog though...
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer Joined: March 08 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2459 |
Posted: November 15 2006 at 16:06 | |
Strange that no-one on this site has mentioned the wonderful (very dreamy!) Norwegian guitarist Terje Rypdal.
I remember how in the Seventies Melody Maker tried to introduce him to the U.K. with an article entitled: 'Thinking Man's Mike Oldfield?' To those readers who are not native speakers of English, just let me explain that this means something like: 'Now here we've got a Mike Oldfield for CLEVER people'! I don't want to start asking if Rypdal is actually cleverer than Oldfield or not, but it seems to me that some of Rypdal's albums are VERY proggy, e.g. WHENEVER I SEEM TO BE FAR AWAY, AFTER THE RAIN and ODYSSEY. Sure, I know that Rypdal's work is invariably included in guides to jazz (and not to rock), mainly because most of his music is improvised, but I can detect lots of similarities with the early work of Pink Floyd (especially A SAUCERFUL OF SECRETS, UMMAGUMMA and 'Echoes'), with Tangerine Dream, Fripp & Eno, and even with early Oldfield (minus the folkish bits). |
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S Lang
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 01 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 441 |
Posted: November 15 2006 at 15:48 | |
I would also draw attention to a specific example in Allan Holdsworth, where the two styles are represented, making it difficult to choose between Jazz-Rock and Fusion.
His earlier works with PM's Gong, Bruford, Tony Wliiams Lifetime, Soft Machine, Nucleus, Ponty are clearly Jazz-Rock, whereas his later solo releases are more of Fusion, strongly Jazz based with little if any hint of Rock there. Scott Henderson, Bill Connors, Frank Gambale and others wasted no time in contributing in a similar vein.
Whilst my personal preference is for Jazz-Rock in place of Fusion, I have no choice, but to reluctantly endorse the current genre as Jazz-Rock/Fusion if only for the sake of simplicity.
Now, if I had a clue as what to do with a certain Bill Laswell who seems to pop up everywhere, often as an originator? Any input on that, Dick? Edited by S Lang - November 15 2006 at 15:54 |
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S Lang
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 01 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 441 |
Posted: November 14 2006 at 14:21 | |
Very nice job, Alucard!
Of Jazz-Rock vs. Fusion.
I have no difficulty with differenciating between the two. Jazz-Rock the term was generally applied to British (often Blues influenced) artists that ventured into more improvised pieces, hence quiet rightly associated with Jazz. The use of wind instruments did help, too. Nucleus, Colosseum, IF, Soft Machine are good examples. Canterbury could be seen as a variant of Jazz-Rock, whilst Brufford, PM's Gong, Weather Report Pekka Pohjola and of course McLaughlin/Mahavishnu, RTF represented a substantially more complex form, closer to Jazz.
Simply, Jazz-Rock was often, but not exclusively instrumental music with improvisations on a Rock groove. Much of Jean-Luc Ponty's discography would fit well there.
Where does it leave the likes of Stanley Clarke, Hancock, Miles Davis?
Some of their albums were definitely Jazz-Rock, whilst their progress(?) led them to more Funk based and rather forgettable experiments.
Fusion on the other hand is a term applied to mainly American artists, based more on Jazz than Rock, ie. Pat Metheny. It also incorporates what we know as "elevator music", the likes of Kenny G, Grover Washington JR, Spyro Gyra, etc. and as such it wouldn't fit into Jazz-Rock by any stretch of imagination.
Naturally, some artists would be difficult to clearly place into either Category, Oregon springs to mind here. They are far too versatile for that, yet their approach is undeniably of Jazz based, albeit in a rather subtle manner.
SBB is mentioned as being associated with Jazz-Rock, or Fusion. I understand that their recent re-formation may support that view, altough I am not familiar with those releases. Their earlier and perhaps more relevant works would see them as more of a Symphonic than Jazz outfit.
Whilst on the subject, I'd like to draw attention to an often overlooked, yet fantastic band, Rare Earth. Their works encompass Blues, Rock, Jazz, even Psychedelic territories and their double Live album is highly recommended.
Tasteful use of wah-wah guitar, saxes/flute, great vocals, keys, confident and solid bass represent much delight, rarely afforded these days. Somewhere along the lines of Colosseum, IF.
Edited by S Lang - November 15 2006 at 15:36 |
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12812 |
Posted: November 14 2006 at 13:13 | |
Excellent - remember Tony Williams is reported to have introduced Davis to the Beatles' recordings
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Alucard
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 10 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 3888 |
Posted: November 14 2006 at 09:45 | |
Thanx to eveybody for the input
I will start today a series of articles about the 'Electric Miles Davis' Jazz Rock period, that will cover the years 1969 to 1975.
Electric Miles (Part one) Introduction :
The Jazz-Rock period of Miles Davis starts in 1969 and ends in1975 when Miles retired due to health problems until the end of the seventies. In these years Miles distributed an important part to Jazz-Rock. ‘Columbia’ released four studio records ‘In a Silent way’(1969), ‘Bitches Brew’ (1970), ‘Jack Johnson’ (1970) and ‘On the Corner’ (1972), but only the first two records were successful, ‘Jack Johnson’ was released as a soundtrack (a documantary about the boxer Jack Johnson) , but at the time the great potential of the record was not perceived and ‘On The Corner’received very negative critics when it was released, and was understood at it’s real value only later. These four records present only a small part of Davis output during these years . A greater part of the tracks recorded during these years were releasd only in the second half of the 70’s and first half of the 80’s on various compilations, that assembled material from different periods and didn’t presented the material in it’s original context. Fortunately, thanx to Bob Belden, who released all ‘Miles Davis Columbia’ studio material in Boxsets, you can now discover all the sessions , remastered and in chronological order . Apart from the studio recordings, there are a lot of live recordings from this period, that illustrate Miles music, especially between 1972 and 1975, when Miles didn’t recorded in the studio. The beginnings (1968): Between 1965 and 1967 Miles Davis had explored with his famous second Quintette [ Herbie Hancock (piano), Wayne Shorter (Tenor sax), Tony Williams (Drums) and Ron Carter ( Bass)] every corner of Modal Jazz and at the beginning of 1968 Miles felt ready for a change. In 1967 the Beatles had released ‘Sergeant Peppers’ and Hendrix ‘Axis Bold As Love’, two major rock records, that used sophisticated studio technics. Miles was impressed and looked for new directions. This was not the first musical revolution that Miles was part of, but the former ones had all happened inside the Jazz field. The new revolution was not one of harmony and melody, but one of sound and style (and of society in a wider sense). New studio technics, new electronic instruments( among them the famous ‘Fender Rhodes’ electric piano) and new sound devices,(Miles would use heavily the ‘Wah-Wah’ pedal) would enlargen the sound spectrum of the music. Mainly influenced by Jimi Hendrix Miles realized the importance of the electric guitar and on december 4th 1967, he invited for the first time a guitarist (Joe Beck) for a session. The most important track to come out of this session is "Circle In The Round" [released on the compilation with the same name]. The track which clocks in on 26 minutes presents several novelties beginning with his unusual length. Miles choose deliberately to leave the typical (theme / solo /theme)-structure to give more freedom to the solo sections and leave space for the rhythm section to evolve on it’s own. For the first time Miles explores ‘Time’ as a structural element, a feature, that would become important in the years to come. Miles does not use the guitar as a solo instrument on this track, ( for the whole 26 minutes Beck plays a repeated ostinato figure, another feature that Miles would explore later on), but rather to ‘thicken the sound’,[BTW he was not very happy with the resultat and had to wait for John Mc Laughlin to give him the guitar sound he was looking for] while Herbie Hancock changes the piano here against a Celesta giving the track an eary feeling.
"Fun" [released on the compilation Directions] was recorded on january 1st 1968 and Miles uses just a short riff, that is played during the whole track.( a procedure that Miles had already tested 10 years earlier in”So What”, but never explored further.)and a feature that would be used a lot on ‘Bitches Brew’. On “Water From the pond” [Directions] from the same session Hancock plays for the first time a Hohner Clavinet and on “Stuff”,17/05/1968 [Miles In The Sky] Miles uses for the first time a binary Rock rhythm, Ron Carter plays for the first time an electric bass and Hancock uses for the first time the famous Fender Rhodes piano, that would become the most used keyboard in Jazz Rock.. In the meantime Hancock, Carter and Williams had decided to leave Miles touring band (but would still appear on the records) and new musicians would join Miles, among them Chick Corea and Joseph Zawinul, both excellent pianists and composers, (Miles used a lot of Zawinul’s compositions in 1969 and 1970) and who would introduce a keyboard-heavy period, where Miles would use sometimes 3 keyboards at the same time to thicken the sound, two keyboards on "Two Faced" (11/11/68) and especially "Ascent" (27/11/68) [Directions] with 3 keyboards. During the year 1968 Miles would try out different formulas, that would prepare the (silent) revolution of ‘In A Silent Way’ (1969) and the outburst of ‘Bitches Brew’ (1969). (ŕ suivre) Edited by Alucard - November 17 2006 at 11:49 |
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Tadpoles keep screaming in my ear
"Hey there! Rotter's Club! Explain the meaning of this song and share it" |
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pero
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 11 2005 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 1242 |
Posted: November 14 2006 at 09:08 | |
Thanks for recomendations.
I have all albums by RTF including Romantic warrior, but that album is not my favorite RTF.
I like Colosseum very much, but I have forgotten to mentioned it in my list (see my avatar) Edited by pero - November 16 2006 at 02:34 |
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prog4evr
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 22 2005 Location: Wuhan, China Status: Offline Points: 1455 |
Posted: November 14 2006 at 06:34 | |
Very good! Someone else mentioned Dixie Dregs - and you must
add Romantic Warrior to your RTF collection. Regarding whether
jazz-rock is prog or not - if nothing else, it is "proto-prog," and
bands like Colloseum, BS&T (only their first album) and Chicago
(maybe only the first two albums) did their 'promo' work in introducing
people like me to the (early) world of progressive music: King
Crimson, Genesis, Yes, etc. |
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12812 |
Posted: November 13 2006 at 12:56 | |
Danbo has just introduced me to Garaj Mahal (excellent jazzrock in the jam style with Mondo Garaj) and discovered Amazon.UK Marketplace are selling earlier releases by the band for 5 to 6 quid each!! (3 now on order).
Jan Hammer back catalogue now filling out after an excessively long wait - bowled over being reacquainted with Jan Hammer Group's Oh Yeah - and expecting Hammer and Goodman's Like Children any day.
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CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12812 |
Posted: October 27 2006 at 11:54 | |
There is validity if the band called themselves "jazzrock" - although I would agree with you to a certain point that the first album doesn't consist of every tune being jazz rock. Indeed some of the best British blues of the period (and perhaps why I prefer Litherland's voice to Farlowe's), then the example of Walking In The Park is minor reworking of Graham Bond's classic R'n'B single (which a couple of Colosseum had played already), and then you have Greenslade pushing towards the symphonic prog sub-genre. I do think the consistent element of Colosseum's music on albums and most certainly their live material is the jazz emphasis tempered largely by blues/R'n'B and to a lesser extent mainstream prog. I would say the main influences on Colosseum came from John Mayall's Bluesbreakers and Graham Bond's Organisation - both bands freely using blues, R'n'B and rock -and jazz.
Mogul Thrash might be called a Colosseum spin-off because of Litherland's presence. Again emphasis on blues with a touch of rock here, a jazz solo there (the alto sax opening of What's This I Hear, has long remained a favourite) might suggest jazz rock, although compared to Colosseum there is less to justify the claim. To put both Colosseum and Mogul Thrash into a historical context, you also need to be aware of the breadth of musical experimentation and freedoms that a lot of bands were trying at the end of the 60's and the beginning of the 70's. It was far from unusual to hear free jazz played by a progressive music group as part of an instrumental break, or the start of a tune; examples: King Crimson, Taste (and Stud -Taste's other spin-off), Skid Row, May Blitz, etc.. This why we called it 'progressive music' because of the willingness to experiment and progress the music by merging rock with some other form(s) of music. Edited by Dick Heath - October 27 2006 at 11:57 |
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Alucard
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 10 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 3888 |
Posted: October 27 2006 at 11:18 | |
maybe a starting point for an interesting discussion about some Jazz Rock characteristics! Already there are several possibilities : Historical & Musical, from the muiscal viewpoint : rhythm (the emphasis on et 'Off beat' in Jazz, then rock got a binary rhythm in opposition to the ternary Jazz rhythm*), Harmony (use of scales), Instrumentation (A sax doesn't make music Jazz, but it's one of the most used instruments in Jazz and more Jazzy then let's say a cello) and even Melody, but only the combination and the given musical context makes the whole thing happen. In some cases the border is quite thin between Rock, Jazz, World and Classical Music.
BTW Andu,
What points would you put in favour for filing 'Colloseum' under Symphonic?
*Ternary or 3 part rhythm refers to the way the 1/4 note is split up. In binary rhythm, the 1/4 note is split into two eights of equal lenghts, or even eigths. In tenary rhythms the 1/4 note is split into eight triplets. When you play an eight pattern in ternary rhythm or 'swing' eights, the first eight gets the value of two eights of the eight triplet. The notation is written as streight eights, but the swing interpretation is always expected if you are playing in the Jazz idiom. This 'floating' rhythm in Jazz is opposed to the binary rock rhythm. Edited by Alucard - October 27 2006 at 13:23 |
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Tadpoles keep screaming in my ear
"Hey there! Rotter's Club! Explain the meaning of this song and share it" |
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andu
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 27 2006 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 3089 |
Posted: October 27 2006 at 10:40 | |
The first thing you say is not an actual argument, the further info is good to know for influences, but it doesn't regard their actual performance and possible definition. One other band I find it doesn't belong at all in jazzrock is Mogul Thrash. By the way, they have a double addition to the PA, this might be a job for the error correction team (or not?).
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12812 |
Posted: October 27 2006 at 10:26 | |
I like the brass (rock)/ big band inclusion - indeed one of the longest chapters in Stuart Nicholson's Jazz Rock: A History, is this very subject (although I suspect Nicholson is a big band fan anyway). My reference points being various of the Mike Gibbs projects from the late 60's into the 90's, Gil Evans (I played a track from his Plays The Music Of Jimi Hendrix on the radio show last night), the oft forgotten Loose Tubes, the late 60's music of Don Ellis. One of the more interesting GRP Records releases was a recording of a live big band lead by Don Grusin. As I've also banged on about brass rock and brass funk groups on another thread I wouldn't say anything there.
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Alucard
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 10 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 3888 |
Posted: October 27 2006 at 09:31 | |
Dick,
I agree with you, not everything is relevant in this list ,especially for the European Jazz, who has a less defined identy than the others,but I still I think, that it gives a good overview .
BTW I put the section names myself, Daverat gives an explanation for every section and I just wanted to resume the sections. I like especially his Brass/ Big Band section, this subsection has a real identity and is rarely mentioned.
Edited by Alucard - October 27 2006 at 09:32 |
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Tadpoles keep screaming in my ear
"Hey there! Rotter's Club! Explain the meaning of this song and share it" |
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12812 |
Posted: October 27 2006 at 08:29 | |
Colosseum called themselves jazz rock from the very beginning (coincidentally formed a few weeks after Timebox packed up, who declared there was no demand for jazz rock groups!) - and then the background of some of the players: Hiseman had been in the National Jazz Youth Orchestra, Heckstall-Smith in a number of jazz blues groups from the early 60's
Alucard
Feel uncomfortable with quite a bit of those listings - especially the use of "proto" . BTW Michael Mantler is Austrian. Where's Tasavallan Presidentti. And if Brit McLaughlin get parked under the US heading , then surely too Jean Luc Ponty for those American recordings. Hot Rats??? Personally I feel this is a forming of listing to be ignored, the errors and omissions being the problem.
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andu
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 27 2006 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 3089 |
Posted: October 27 2006 at 08:12 | |
seems like i'm the one with the questions around. this time it's: why is colosseum regarded as a jazzrock band rather then a jazzy progrock band? i've listened to the albums of the first era and in my opinion they're just a (great) symphonic prog band with strog blues and jazz influences, of which blues seems the more important component, as some band members actually played in groups like mayall's bluesbreakers. i don't think having a sax, also, makes them jazzrock.
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Alucard
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 10 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 3888 |
Posted: October 27 2006 at 08:03 | |
The following list come from the Jazz-Rock chapter of the ‘Dictionnaire du Jazz‘[Laffont] (1994) written by Xavier Daverat. I don’t agree with everything, but in a whole it gives a good overlook over Jazz –Rock and the subsections make sense in terms of developpment of the genre. Records are in quotations marks songs without. 1.Proto Jazz-Rock /British Jazz-Rock: Graham Bond: The Grass Is Greener (1963)/ Walkin In The Park (1966) Colosseum : “Those Who Are About To Die Salute You” (1969)/ “Live” (1971) Dada : “Dada” (1971) Dick Heckstall Smith : The Pirate’s Deam (1972) King Crimson : Lizard (1970)/ “Islands” (1971) Manfred Mann: “Chapter Three” (1970)/ “Solar Fire”(1974) Matching Mole : “Little Red Record” (1972) Mogul Trash : “Same” (1971) Nucleus : “We’ll Talk About It Later” (1971) Soft Machine : Out Bloody Rageous (1970)/ “Six” (1973) Wizzard : Ball Park Incident (1973) Robert Wyatt : “Rock Bottom” (1975) 2. US Jazz-Rock: Carla Bley : “Escalator Over The Hill” (1968-71) Gary Burton : Open Your Eyes, You Can Fly (1973) Stanley Clarke : “Journey To Love” (1976) Billy Cobham : “Spectrum” (1973) Larry Corryell : “Spaces” (1969) Miles Davis : “In A Silent Way” (1969)/ “Bitches Brew (1969)/ “ At Fillmore” (1970) / “Live Evil” (1970) Al DI Meola : Suite , Golden Dawn (1976) Jan Hammer : “The First Seven Days” (1975) Herbie Hancock : “Fat Albert Rotunda” 1970)/ “Sextant” (1972)/ Keith Jarrett : “Hymn & Spheres” (1976) John Mc Laughlin “ My Golas Beyond (1970)/ A Love Supreme (woth C. Santana) (1973) Mahavishnu Orchestra : ‘Birds Of Fire” (1972)/ “Visions Of The Emerald Beyond” (1974) Michael Mantler : “No Answer” (1973) / “Silence” (1976)/ “Movies” (1977) Wayne Shorter : “Supernova” (1969) Return To Forever : You’re Everything (1972)/ “Hymn To The Eleventh Galaxy” (1973) Weather Report : Orange Lady (1971) /Boogie Woogie Waltz (1973) / “Black Market” (1975) Tony Williams Lifetime : “Turn It Over” (1971) 3. Brass & Big Band Jazz Rock: Blood , Sweat & Tears : Blues Part 2 (1969)/ “New Blood “ (1972) Chicago Transit Authority : “ Live At Carnegie Hall” (1971) Flock : “Clown (1969)/ “Dinosaur Swamps” (1970) Ides Of March : Vehicle (1970) Frank Zappa : “Chunga’s Revenge” (1970)/ “The Grand Wazzoo” (1972)/ Waka Jawaka (1973) 4. European Jazz Rock : Burnin Red Ivanhoe : “ M144” (1969) Krokodil : Looking At Time (1972) Magma : Stoah (1970) Jean Luc Ponty : It Must Be A Camel (1969)/ Cantaloupe Island (1969) Terje Rypdal : Keep It Like That Tight (1971) Supersister : “Iskander” (1973) Edited by Alucard - October 27 2006 at 09:20 |
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Tadpoles keep screaming in my ear
"Hey there! Rotter's Club! Explain the meaning of this song and share it" |
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