the world just gets weirder - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

aqualung28 View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 03 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 916

Posted: January 12 2005 at 21:18

They should teach both of them or teach none at all

"O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love
'n you should have us all
O' you should have us fall"
"Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: January 12 2005 at 21:12

I have never participated in a religious thread because I believe the faith is personal, but as a lawyer I will give my opinion leaving behind my beliefs as a Catholic:

Supreme Court didn't had the right to ban the theory of Creationism, because is a clear attempt to the freedom of faith and against the universalism in education.
Creationism should be also mentioned in Biology class as the belief of a part of society, giving the facts, the opinions in favor and the opinions against that theory, but dogmas and the cults should not be included in a class of science or biology, only in a religion class.
Religion and/or Theology should be taught as an elective course, because even if there's no prove that God exists there's nobody that can prove God doesn't exist either and Religion has been part of the history of USA and the whole world.
The Atheism, Humanism, etc. should be also part of the studies for children in schools.
If 82% of the people in USA believe that God has participated in any form in creation and/or evolution, it's also their right to see that their children receive this theory, but not to create a confrontation with other theories.
All major religions should be represented in that elective course, not only one, calling experts or preachers to teach their beliefs.
If any student or group of students want to express their beliefs without attacking any other belief, they should be allowed to do so, because this right is clearly stated in USA Constitution.

The problem of ACLU is that because of the feeling of guilt they have for all the crimes committed against minorities in the past they have created an inverse form of discrimination.

Institutions are forced to hire a certain percentage of personnel from minorities even if there are not enough qualified members of that minority. Because of abuses committed by police they are protecting more the rights of the criminal against the honest citizen or the policeman that receives the bullet protecting citizenship.

I know that there’s a lot of sexual abuse in work against women and I took some cases against companies where this happened, but a woman only needs to shout harassment and the guy is considered guilty or probably fired without having the chance to defend himself.

Because their fear for fundamentalism (well it also scares the $hit out of me) they protect the rights of the non-believer against the rights of the believer, when there should exist equivalence in this case.

I believe that if more than 80% of USA citizens believe in any form of Religion they have the same rights as the 18% who doesn’t believe, not more not less, exactly the same.

In Perú Religion is taught in public schools, in most of the cases Catholic Religion but the parents have the right to decide if their kids go to that class or not, I believe this is healthy.

This is my modest opinion.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

Glass-Prison View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: February 08 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 453

Posted: January 12 2005 at 19:34

I don't think the public schools should teach any theory that is not based in fact... it is merely teaching our children to accept faith as a reasonable method of logical deduction.

Sun Tsu said: To fight and conquer in your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tsu: The art of War

Metropolis View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 20 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 760

Posted: January 12 2005 at 18:22

Indeed, what a farce

We Lost the Skyline............

Reed Lover View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187

Posted: January 12 2005 at 18:18

The problem is that these are not stupid people pushing this.Teachers,Lawyers, Doctors are all involved with "Intelligent Design", Politicians too.This heavyweight patronage gives such nonesense an air of acceptability and plausibility that would be laughed at in any other Western country.These "theories" would never have been promulgated had The Theory Of Evolution not been propounded.There is no precedent in the Bible for this "new theory".It exists purely as an alternative choice for choice's sake.If Darwen had never formulated his theory these people would still be peddling the Adam & Eve version of events.

Remember Pol Pot and Year Zero or the Taliban? This is what will happen in the USA over the next century unless the people of America start to contribute to the Political & Religious Debate in their country.

Confused

Edited by Reed Lover

tuxon

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502

Posted: January 12 2005 at 18:09

They might as well teach Tolkiens version of the creation of the world. Just as relevant.

Here's a summary of the creation theorie according to JRR Tolkien.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/camwyn/328358.html

I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT

Velvetclown View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 8548

Posted: January 12 2005 at 17:20

Dark Ages here we come !!!!!!!

arcer

Prog Reviewer

Joined: September 01 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1239

Posted: January 12 2005 at 15:34

oh boy....

THE BATTLE over attempts to introduce a version of creationism into the curriculum of American schools has become focused on a small town in Pennsylvania.
Biology teachers at a high school in Dover have rejected the instructions of local officials to read a statement in class today questioning the theory of evolution.
They had been ordered by the town’s elected school board to preface their usual class on evolution with a statement, saying “Darwin’s Theory is a theory ... not a fact. Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no evidence.” As an alternative, the statement mentions “intelligent design”, an updated form of creationism which argues that life on earth is too complex to have developed at random.
The teachers asked to opt out of making the statement and it will be read instead by a school administrator before a biology class early next week.
The Dover school board’s actions make the town the first in the US to promote “intelligent design” in competition to evolution. It has become the subject of a lawsuit by a group of parents that has pitted the Christian right against the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). The case is due to be heard in the next few months.
“Intelligent design is more than an attack on evolution. What these folks are proposing is to allow faith and miracles and supernatural creators to be considered as science,” the ACLU’s legal director in Pennsylvania, Witold Walczak, said.
A supreme court decision in 1987 banned the teaching of creationism on the grounds that it would violate the separation of church and state.
The Dover school board decision is one of a series of signs that the movement is making a comeback. Mr Walczak predicted that it would gather steam as Christian conservatives drew inspiration from President Bush’s re-election.
A CBS/New York Times poll at the time of the election found 55% of Americans believed God created humans in their present form, 27% believed in evolution guided by God and only 13% believed God was not involved in human evolution. And 65% backed teaching creationism alongside evolution.
The Dover school board and its supporters argue that “intelligent design” is not covered by the 1987 supreme court decision because it is not inherently religious, but a scientific challenge to Darwinism.
“Religion has nothing to do with intelligent design,” said Carl Jarboe, a former chemistry professor and school board supporter. “I am alleging there is not one piece of scientific evidence that supports evolution."

Author	Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic
aqualung28 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: December 03 2004 Status: Offline Points: 916	Posted: January 12 2005 at 21:18
	They should teach both of them or teach none at all
	"O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love 'n you should have us all O' you should have us fall" "Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart

Ivan_Melgar_M Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557	Posted: January 12 2005 at 21:12
	I have never participated in a religious thread because I believe the faith is personal, but as a lawyer I will give my opinion leaving behind my beliefs as a Catholic: Supreme Court didn't had the right to ban the theory of Creationism, because is a clear attempt to the freedom of faith and against the universalism in education. Creationism should be also mentioned in Biology class as the belief of a part of society, giving the facts, the opinions in favor and the opinions against that theory, but dogmas and the cults should not be included in a class of science or biology, only in a religion class. Religion and/or Theology should be taught as an elective course, because even if there's no prove that God exists there's nobody that can prove God doesn't exist either and Religion has been part of the history of USA and the whole world. The Atheism, Humanism, etc. should be also part of the studies for children in schools. If 82% of the people in USA believe that God has participated in any form in creation and/or evolution, it's also their right to see that their children receive this theory, but not to create a confrontation with other theories. All major religions should be represented in that elective course, not only one, calling experts or preachers to teach their beliefs. If any student or group of students want to express their beliefs without attacking any other belief, they should be allowed to do so, because this right is clearly stated in USA Constitution. The problem of ACLU is that because of the feeling of guilt they have for all the crimes committed against minorities in the past they have created an inverse form of discrimination. Institutions are forced to hire a certain percentage of personnel from minorities even if there are not enough qualified members of that minority. Because of abuses committed by police they are protecting more the rights of the criminal against the honest citizen or the policeman that receives the bullet protecting citizenship. I know that there’s a lot of sexual abuse in work against women and I took some cases against companies where this happened, but a woman only needs to shout harassment and the guy is considered guilty or probably fired without having the chance to defend himself. Because their fear for fundamentalism (well it also scares the $hit out of me) they protect the rights of the non-believer against the rights of the believer, when there should exist equivalence in this case. I believe that if more than 80% of USA citizens believe in any form of Religion they have the same rights as the 18% who doesn’t believe, not more not less, exactly the same. In Perú Religion is taught in public schools, in most of the cases Catholic Religion but the parents have the right to decide if their kids go to that class or not, I believe this is healthy. This is my modest opinion. Iván Edited by ivan_2068

Glass-Prison Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: February 08 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 453	Posted: January 12 2005 at 19:34
	I don't think the public schools should teach any theory that is not based in fact... it is merely teaching our children to accept faith as a reasonable method of logical deduction.
	Sun Tsu said: To fight and conquer in your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Sun Tsu: The art of War

Metropolis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: December 20 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 760	Posted: January 12 2005 at 18:22
	Indeed, what a farce
	We Lost the Skyline............

Reed Lover Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: July 16 2004 Location: Sao Tome and Pr Status: Offline Points: 5187	Posted: January 12 2005 at 18:18
	The problem is that these are not stupid people pushing this.Teachers,Lawyers, Doctors are all involved with "Intelligent Design", Politicians too.This heavyweight patronage gives such nonesense an air of acceptability and plausibility that would be laughed at in any other Western country.These "theories" would never have been promulgated had The Theory Of Evolution not been propounded.There is no precedent in the Bible for this "new theory".It exists purely as an alternative choice for choice's sake.If Darwen had never formulated his theory these people would still be peddling the Adam & Eve version of events. Remember Pol Pot and Year Zero or the Taliban? This is what will happen in the USA over the next century unless the people of America start to contribute to the Political & Religious Debate in their country. Edited by Reed Lover


tuxon Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502	Posted: January 12 2005 at 18:09
	They might as well teach Tolkiens version of the creation of the world. Just as relevant. Here's a summary of the creation theorie according to JRR Tolkien. http://www.livejournal.com/users/camwyn/328358.html
	I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT

Velvetclown Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: February 13 2004 Status: Offline Points: 8548	Posted: January 12 2005 at 17:20
	Dark Ages here we come !!!!!!!

arcer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Prog Reviewer Joined: September 01 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1239	Posted: January 12 2005 at 15:34
	oh boy.... THE BATTLE over attempts to introduce a version of creationism into the curriculum of American schools has become focused on a small town in Pennsylvania. Biology teachers at a high school in Dover have rejected the instructions of local officials to read a statement in class today questioning the theory of evolution. They had been ordered by the town’s elected school board to preface their usual class on evolution with a statement, saying “Darwin’s Theory is a theory ... not a fact. Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no evidence.” As an alternative, the statement mentions “intelligent design”, an updated form of creationism which argues that life on earth is too complex to have developed at random. The teachers asked to opt out of making the statement and it will be read instead by a school administrator before a biology class early next week. The Dover school board’s actions make the town the first in the US to promote “intelligent design” in competition to evolution. It has become the subject of a lawsuit by a group of parents that has pitted the Christian right against the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). The case is due to be heard in the next few months. “Intelligent design is more than an attack on evolution. What these folks are proposing is to allow faith and miracles and supernatural creators to be considered as science,” the ACLU’s legal director in Pennsylvania, Witold Walczak, said. A supreme court decision in 1987 banned the teaching of creationism on the grounds that it would violate the separation of church and state. The Dover school board decision is one of a series of signs that the movement is making a comeback. Mr Walczak predicted that it would gather steam as Christian conservatives drew inspiration from President Bush’s re-election. A CBS/New York Times poll at the time of the election found 55% of Americans believed God created humans in their present form, 27% believed in evolution guided by God and only 13% believed God was not involved in human evolution. And 65% backed teaching creationism alongside evolution. The Dover school board and its supporters argue that “intelligent design” is not covered by the 1987 supreme court decision because it is not inherently religious, but a scientific challenge to Darwinism. “Religion has nothing to do with intelligent design,” said Carl Jarboe, a former chemistry professor and school board supporter. “I am alleging there is not one piece of scientific evidence that supports evolution."