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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?

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Hugh Manatee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2022 at 17:58



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2022 at 14:49

Progaardvark, I'm curious about this special kind of communication, you practice, "double split" or something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2022 at 14:33
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...if everyone came with their own definition of things, there would not be any consensus in anything.

To expect consensus is far too optimistic imo, but I hope that the PA top is rather sensitive to the opinions of the members. Smile

not what I meant at all. 

sorry about that

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2022 at 07:29
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Cristi & I have consensus that we both wonder what we're still doing here on this thread 20 pages later. Tongue

LOL

I guess, you just can't keep away. Big smile


Edited by David_D - August 18 2022 at 07:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2022 at 07:24
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...if everyone came with their own definition of things, there would not be any consensus in anything.

To expect consensus is far too optimistic imo, but I hope that the PA top is rather sensitive to the opinions of the members. Smile
Cristi & I have consensus that we both wonder what we're still doing here on this thread 20 pages later. Tongue


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - August 18 2022 at 07:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2022 at 07:24
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...if everyone came with their own definition of things, there would not be any consensus in anything.

To expect consensus is far too optimistic imo, but I hope that the PA top is rather sensitive to the opinions of the members. Smile

not what I meant at all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2022 at 07:22
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...if everyone came with their own definition of things, there would not be any consensus in anything.

To expect consensus is far too optimistic imo, but I hope that the PA top is rather sensitive to the opinions of the members. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2022 at 05:59

And thank you everybody for this very constructive discussion, presenting various points of view which one can consider. Smile








Edited by David_D - August 18 2022 at 06:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2022 at 05:09

Regarding Saperlip's status as a "collaborator", he's not officially...yet, but that's what I've reconed on basis of his
suddenly very "authoritative" and active behaviour the last three months - but I can of course be wrong.







Edited by David_D - August 18 2022 at 05:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 16:18
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why. Smile

I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA.
Something else, in the thread "Plans on PA for becoming an all-music site?" some collaborators are argueing for expanding/changing the understanding of Prog on PA, so it's not only me who might like to "define" differently.

I don't remember seeing any of that in that thread, quotes please.

Here they are:

Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

PA is not going to narrow the definitions of what prog is. It's going to extend the understanding of what prog is as it keeps developing. 

I'm constantly challenged on what neo-prog (and prog in general) is and I do not always agree on the neo additions but it's a way to allow for prog to evolve.

For instance, over time crossover prog has embraced a variety of music that really makes me think there's room for new prog genres here.


Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

There's no question that in recent years Prog Rock has been evolving.
It's only natural that the farther away we are from the 70s the more the concept of Prog Rock is branching out, as new bands pop up with fresh interpretations of what producing progressive music may mean.
If you stick to considering classic Prog as "the purest Prog there is", unavoidably you will be challenged by the progressiveness of many recent bands.

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

There's no question that in recent years Prog Rock has been evolving.
It's only natural that the farther away we are from the 70s the more the concept of Prog Rock is branching out, as new bands pop up with fresh interpretations of what producing progressive music may mean.
If you stick to considering classic Prog as "the purest Prog there is", unavoidably you will be challenged by the progressiveness of many recent bands.
Yep, progressive rock cannot and should never have a completely finished definition. At least not until it's in a museum.

All the quotes are from page 3, 05-06 August 2022.


Edited by David_D - August 17 2022 at 22:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 16:04
^OK, duly noted. I apologize.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 15:48
^ I do think that those sorts of comments are better suited to the Just for Fun forum. Plenty of topics there for such nonsense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 15:36
I'd like a coelacanth burger, please. Well done. Swiss cheese. Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 15:30
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.

"We agree more than we disagree" is a much weaker statement than "there is consensus". 

We agree because of consensus. Disagreements are rare which is a great thing. 
What am I missing here? Confused

I'd say that consensus is constituted by agreement, rather than being a cause of it. You have consensus to the degree that you agree, and no further. By the way, as Prog Reviewer I can watch the team threads and disagreement isn't that rare in my perception. Yes, you agree more than you disagree, but there's enough disagreement to find the statement that there is overall consensus dubious (I'm not specifically referring to teams of which you are a member).

Generally I think that you miss the fact that pragmatic use and degrees of agreement are not criteria of truth or correctness. Yes it is useful and pragmatic to have well defined genres and in a team it is useful to try to agree on genre definitions. The PA definitions result from a long negotiation process and have been changed at times. There are some inclusions and exclusions with which a number of collaborators don't agree, and things may change in the future. The PA definitions are pragmatic to a certain extent and they are agreed to a certain extent, as the current manifestation of the negotiation process that may go on. However they do not refer to any objective truth; they are constructed in this way not because this is the only correct way of doing it, but because something like this is needed, so some agreement should be reached, which could as well be different, but now it is like this.

The current definitions can be defended on pragmatic grounds, but they are ultimately not binding for anyone outside the process in which they are used, i.e., for accepting, rejecting, and categorising PA entries. Who does not take part in this can well have different personal definitions (or refer to different places where there are different categories); actually this even holds for collabs as long as they are not specifically  involved in such decisions, and in fact even if involved in such decisions, as disagreement may be rare but happens.

(Though I'd probably agree with you thinking that if somebody comes up with some ad hoc genre definitions and claims that these are better than those of PA based on the odd decision that they don't like, we can suspect that this person underestimates the thought, effort, and controversy that has gone into the PA definitions and may well underestimate their power.)

I was just trying to say everyone coming with their own definition(s) is a bad idea. 
Next time I'll be more careful to not get baited in threads about definitions and classifications...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 15:09
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.

"We agree more than we disagree" is a much weaker statement than "there is consensus". 

We agree because of consensus. Disagreements are rare which is a great thing. 
What am I missing here? Confused

I'd say that consensus is constituted by agreement, rather than being a cause of it. You have consensus to the degree that you agree, and no further. By the way, as Prog Reviewer I can watch the team threads and disagreement isn't that rare in my perception. Yes, you agree more than you disagree, but there's enough disagreement to find the statement that there is overall consensus dubious (I'm not specifically referring to teams of which you are a member).

Generally I think that you miss the fact that pragmatic use and degrees of agreement are not criteria of truth or correctness. Yes it is useful and pragmatic to have well defined genres and in a team it is useful to try to agree on genre definitions. The PA definitions result from a long negotiation process and have been changed at times. There are some inclusions and exclusions with which a number of collaborators don't agree, and things may change in the future. The PA definitions are pragmatic to a certain extent and they are agreed to a certain extent, as the current manifestation of the negotiation process that may go on. However they do not refer to any objective truth; they are constructed in this way not because this is the only correct way of doing it, but because something like this is needed, so some agreement should be reached, which could as well be different, but now it is like this.

The current definitions can be defended on pragmatic grounds, but they are ultimately not binding for anyone outside the process in which they are used, i.e., for accepting, rejecting, and categorising PA entries. Who does not take part in this can well have different personal definitions (or refer to different places where there are different categories); actually this even holds for collabs as long as they are not specifically  involved in such decisions, and in fact even if involved in such decisions, as disagreement may be rare but happens.

(Though I'd probably agree with you thinking that if somebody comes up with some ad hoc genre definitions and claims that these are better than those of PA based on the odd decision that they don't like, we can suspect that this person underestimates the thought, effort, and controversy that has gone into the PA definitions and may well underestimate their power.)


Edited by Lewian - August 17 2022 at 15:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 14:00
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.

"We agree more than we disagree" is a much weaker statement than "there is consensus". 

We agree because of consensus. Disagreements are rare which is a great thing. 
What am I missing here? Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 13:56
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.

"We agree more than we disagree" is a much weaker statement than "there is consensus". Just saying. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 13:14
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ That's not what I'm talking about. There can be consensus between collaborators about which artist to accept or not to enter the PA database, that does not at all affect an eventual definition of what is "prog" or not. You can have a consensus about an artist/an album, but you probably will never have consensus about what is exactly prog.

but how can we agree or disagree whether an artist is progressive or not if we do not have a consensus on what is prog or what makes an artist progressive. 


Haha..! Well, that's a problem for you, Collaborators. You have your standards/instructions and/or sub-genre definitions that may be your guidelines. But your decisions do not necessarily meet with an approval of the "general" public, and the genre (or sub-genre) attributed to an artist may not be satisfactory to everyone.

I give up. I don't even like this topic, what am I doing here?! ConfusedLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 13:11
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ That's not what I'm talking about. There can be consensus between collaborators about which artist to accept or not to enter the PA database, that does not at all affect an eventual definition of what is "prog" or not. You can have a consensus about an artist/an album, but you probably will never have consensus about what is exactly prog.

but how can we agree or disagree whether an artist is progressive or not if we do not have a consensus on what is prog or what makes an artist progressive. 


Haha..! Well, that's a problem for you, Collaborators. You have your standards/instructions and/or sub-genre definitions that may be your guidelines. But your decisions do not necessarily meet with an approval of the "general" public, and the genre (or sub-genre) attributed to an artist may not be satisfactory to everyone.

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2022 at 13:02
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ That's not what I'm talking about. There can be consensus between collaborators about which artist to accept or not to enter the PA database, that does not at all affect an eventual definition of what is "prog" or not. You can have a consensus about an artist/an album, but you probably will never have consensus about what is exactly prog.

but how can we agree or disagree whether an artist is progressive or not if we do not have a consensus on what is prog or what makes an artist progressive. 
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