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Statues & remembering the past |
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Easy Money 
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
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 Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:55 |
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Racism on both sides. To the south, blacks were slaves. To the north, freed slaves were a great way to punish the south. The blacks were left to fend for themselves after the north walked away from the situation.
Edited by Easy Money - June 12 2020 at 17:57 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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micky
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:50 |
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absolutely f**king not
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Easy Money
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:46 |
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^ There was certainly no moral high ground on either side.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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micky
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:39 |
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so then you see it was an conflict based not on slavery but on a differing ideology.. of what this country should be. Having never truly been settled after its creation. It was going to take a war to settle it. .and it did.. partially hahaha
but that is for 'another thread'
However.. what happened after the war.. you bet your ass it was racially motivated as Greg correctly noted and all while the North imposed its own brand of slavery.. economic.... Funny..getting back on topic. One of the more infamous Confederate Statues came down in the wake of Floyd's murder.. the one right down the street here in deeply blue (80-20 like) Alexandria. The with its back turned toward D.C.. and the north. Only thing missing was the uplifted middle finger  and not a peep was heard from anyone .. in fact I believe the DotC who owned it were the ones behind its removal. As David has been saying.. oh the times.. they are a changin' Edited by micky - June 12 2020 at 17:40 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Easy Money
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:26 |
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^ I agree that the way I was taught at school (in the south none the less) that the war was all about slavery is an untrue simplification, but the confederate speech in question is enough to let you know that the danger of losing the slaves was well on the confederates mind.
I understand that Lincoln did not make it an issue until he was afraid Europe was going to help the south. And yes, I know all about the tariffs, I am from the south you know, and I have heard my share of late night drunken lectures on what the civil war was really about.  Edited by Easy Money - June 12 2020 at 17:29 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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micky
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 16:28 |
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no doubt.. as might know.. I spent years researching William Barksdale when writing my book on him. One of the greatest fighting Generals this country ever produced.. and also dyed in the wool racist. Of course there were elements for which slavery was prime... but most fell in Lee's camp. A heartfelt duty to their states more than a defense of slavery. Just as there were those in the north that wanted that war to end slavery but the abolitionists were a minority as much as the Fire Breathers were..
The war wa snot about slavery.. Lincoln could nothing to end the practice.. it was not immediately threatened. As I alluded to our inevitable Civil War nearly happened about tariffs decades earlier. Both were symptoms for what really drove north and south to war. The breakdown in compromise over an issue this country had to settle that had smoldered since independence from England. For most included damn everyone who actually fought killed and gave the ultimate sacrifice.. to say it was about slavery completely misses the point why hundreds and hundreds of thousand fought and died. It was about preserving the union for those in the north.. While in the south is was about what all held more dear than that union.. their states..and states rights to determine the way they lived.. not Washington DC. That was what that war about was about and more to Greg's point.. what those soldiers fought for. They either fought for preserving the union.. or their rights of their states.. and the duty, loyalty each felt towards it.
Edited by micky - June 12 2020 at 16:30 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Easy Money
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 16:02 |
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^ You might want to read the speech that the man second in command to Lee gave before the civil war. It was very much centered on the role of the black man in the south.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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micky
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 15:31 |
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great great post and yes... you nailed it.. until you tripped right before you stepped on the plate. fighting for the rights of slave owners... no.. they did not. No more than we fought for Big Oil Companies in Kuwait and Iraq. No more than the north fought to free the slaves. Slavery is not why either side fought. Remember the Civil War nearly happened 30 years before it did and slavery had nothing to do with it.. that war was destined to happen regardless of whether it was slavery or tariffs as north and south grew so far apart in so many ways.. slavery was just one of the ways. but nice recovery from the trip... history has many interpretations.. thus not just a book.. many are needed to fully understand history.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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lazland
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 14:54 |
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One of those exchanges where you both make very valid points. What I would say, as an avid reader, especially of history, is that history books range from the absolutely source driven material to the books written with an inherent bias from the perspective of the historians personal viewpoint, I.e. such and such was wrong, or so and so made a mistake. History is very rarely completely unsullied by this, and, don’t forget, much of history is written by the winning side.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 12:16 |
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So you're willing to accept a statue erected solely for white supremacy by white supremacists (if we are being accurate), but you're worried about history books being inaccurate? That is hilarious.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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SteveG
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Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 12:12 |
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Edited by SteveG - June 12 2020 at 12:18 |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Catcher10
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:55 |
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So all correct/accurate history only lies in books??  And all the people that experienced these things in history are senile......cmon Steve. |
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NotAProghead
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:25 |
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They shouldn't. I call things that happen now "tolerant vandalism".
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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SteveG
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:22 |
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And that's the problem with history remembered. It's always altered by bias.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Easy Money
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:21 |
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I'm okay with a statue commemorating what a stupid disaster the confederacy was, but that statue does not exist because some want to erase history as it really was.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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SteveG
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:05 |
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Yes, we'll all die soon. But that's why Greg (Dark Elf) said to read a book. That's where history really resides, not in some old senile person's mind.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Catcher10
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 11:01 |
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That's the point......I am sure you can ask young people about Jim Crow today and not many have an idea, and then later on none of them will know and risk it happening again.
We know about it.......for those with kids here ask them if they know about Jim Crow and the KKK, unless you explain it to them the knowledge will end. Don't forget we will all die soon. Remember history has a funny way of repeating itself.....
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 10:43 |
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Statues erected by Confederate sympathizers 50 to 100 years after the Civil War (and nearly all were erected between 1890 and 1950, with the majority between 1900-20), were put there not as some "reminder how not to behave"; on the contrary, they were erected as a mythical glorification of a South that really never actually existed as well as a warning to blacks and symbols of white supremacy. The majority were erected when Jim Crow Laws were being enacted in every state across the South, when segregation was legitimized, and when the Ku Klux Klan had reached its zenith of power. They ennoble rebels against the United States, and make heroes of those who fought for the rights of slave-holders. You want history? Read a book.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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SteveG
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 10:24 |
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Nazi flags, swastikas and statues of Adolph are banned in Germany. Makes perfect sense to me. The history of that dismal era will still be remembered without any of those props. |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Easy Money
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Posted: June 12 2020 at 10:03 |
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We must never erase history, warts and all, but a statue isn't history, its a tribute.
As a southerner, I think Confederate statues should come down. They were erected during the jim crow era as a way of reminding black people who was still in charge. The confederacy was the worst thing that ever happened to the south. Keep it as important history, but get rid of the glorious statue tributes. As far as erasing history goes, %50 of southerners were opposed to the civil war. Where is their statue? Where is there a statue for southerners who spoke out against the confederacy? Where are the statues for those who helped slaves escape? |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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The Dark Elf wrote: