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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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 Posted: December 22 2012 at 06:22 |
 Dean wrote:
How many house burglaries happen when the house is occupied? An occupied house, whether the occupant is armed or not, is an unnecessary complication and increases the chances of getting caught. A seasoned house-breaker can get into any house no matter what domestic security is in place, if you are protected like Fort Knox then you are advertising that you have something worth protecting - the burglar is not to know what that is. What it does protect against is opportunistic bandits who see an open window and are in like Flinn.
I know people don't like statistics because they can be used to tell whatever story you want to tell but that's because people are very bad at interpreting and understanding numeric information, the numbers themselves do not lie: comparisons of the burglary rates per country show no correlation to gun control (or lack of) - that means they cannot be used to show that gun control does or does not work but can they be used to show that gun ownership is not a deterrent.
Nor is gun ownership a viable means of defence during a house break-in, as Chester said - the bandit has the advantage every time and think about it - you own a gun to stop him shooting you and he carries one to stop you shooting him - this is not an even contest - if he sees a gun he will fire.
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I can tell you one when my wife was alone in the bathroom...
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65608
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 05:48 |
I can't get behind the whole 'let the critters go' thing-- my cat brings home a rat or bird I'm not gonna set his hard-earned meal and plaything free
okay okay, back to topic, jeez don't bite my head off ...
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 04:21 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
How many home burglaries are committed with a weapon? I tried a quick search to find out, but I couldn't seem to find data. I would expect the number to be low, but who knows?
I respect your viewpoint and I would agree with you in the case of humans.
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I couldn't find that data either, nor could I find data on how many burglaries occurred when the homeowner was present - I too would expect the numbers to be low. What data there is shows no correlation between the burglary rates by country and gun control. As a justification for gun ownership I find it to be a weak one, if it gives the gun-owner peace of mind in a violent world I can understand the idea behind it, I don't think I would come out of it too well mentally if I shot an armed burglar, worse still if he was unarmed.
I think I have disturbed a burglar who attempted to break into my home - though at the time I was unaware that a break in was in progress. I woke up one morning to discover that all the outside doors to my car-port had been wedged open, presumably to allow the bandit to make off with whatever he could carry. A thorough check of the contents of all sheds and outhouses showed than nothing had been taken, and none of the (locked) doors into the house had been forced even though the car port contained several tools (including power tools, saws, axes and hammers) that could have been used; at the time the patio table was stacked high with booze (as it still is now) and the burglar had even used a case of champagne to prop open one of the doors, yet nothing was missing. Obviously he had been disturbed during the act and fled empty handed. Talking to the neighbours the following day there was a report of a burglary in the village at around 4am that night.
At that approximate time I had got up to go to the toilet (yeah, I'm at that stage in life...  ) and padded downstairs without getting dressed, having relieved my bladder I went back to bed. I can only guess that the sight of me unclothed had frightened him off... 
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:50 |
Dean wrote:
What you must never do is arm bears. |
 Several images are currently running through my mind, none of em are what you'd call sane.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:46 |
Dean wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Given the option between you having a gun during a burglary and you not having a gun, you would be indifferent to either choice?
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I think I would feel less likely to die if I wasn't a threat to the person holding a gun. Given my pacifism I really don't think I could or would fire the first shot. The odds are stacked against me winning any shoot-out.
I am not uncomfortable with guns, nor am I unfamilar with them - I grew up with guns and I have owned guns, my uncle was president of a police gun-club and I had access to a wide varitey of firearms. In my youth I was a pretty good a shot and could slaughter paper targets, clays and tin cans with wild abandon - what I could never do was shoot at a living creature, even a rat. |
How many home burglaries are committed with a weapon? I tried a quick search to find out, but I couldn't seem to find data. I would expect the number to be low, but who knows? I respect your viewpoint and I would agree with you in the case of humans.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:46 |
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What you must never do is arm bears.
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What?
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:45 |
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Also, rodents almost never bear arms.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:41 |
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What?
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smartpatrol
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2012
Location: My Bedroom
Status: Offline
Points: 14169
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:34 |
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smartpatrol
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2012
Location: My Bedroom
Status: Offline
Points: 14169
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:33 |
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I'm going to state my current views on gun control:
If people want guns, they should have guns.
But sense guns can be very dangerous, it is important to make sure that they don't fall into the wrong hands
If someone wants a gun license, they should have to go through a very through and strict background check and psychological test. These should be redone annually in order to make sure that person remains stable.
I also think automatic weapons should be outlawed for use outside the military. I don't see why you would need an automatic weapon, even for home security. They are far too dangerous and far to lethal.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65608
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:32 |
Dean wrote:
In my youth I was a pretty good a shot and could slaughter paper targets, clays and tin cans with wild abandon - what I could never do was shoot at a living creature, even a rat. |
Besides, we have our kitties for that.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:31 |
CCVP wrote:
Dean wrote:
CCVP wrote:
Brazil has one of the strictest gun policies in the Americas and we still have alarming rates of gunfire crimes/murder. Just some kilometers north of where I live there are over 60 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants and where I live the figures are around 40 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants, way above the US medium.
Are any of those crimes committed with legally acquired guns and ammunition? A mere fraction. Still, I do believe that selling some types of firearms to civilians a bit too much, like rifles and such. |
That is a perfectly valid observation - treating the symptom does not cure the disease, it is necessary to do both to effect the desired result - regulation of the means of killing without addressing cause of killing is not a cure. If a kid is hitting other kids with a baseball bat the first course of action is to take away the bat, then you look to why he wants to hurt others - you don't enter that discourse while he is sat next to a pile of baseball bats. At some point in time all those illegally owned guns were legally produced and sold.
The question is, which club do you want to be a member of: one with >40 killings, >10 killings or <0.25 killings per 100,000 of population? |
Thing is, Brazil has, as mentioned, one of the strictest policies for legally acquiring a gun. So, the only way to go next would be making guns illegal, something that both I do not agree and will not solve the problem (homicide), because it is mostly related with other criminal activities, specially drug trafficking. |
No. Absolutely not. Making guns illegal is not the only way to go next, when most crimes are already committed using illegally owned guns then that will change nothing. The next step is to reduce the total number of guns in circulation - reducing the availability of legal guns will, over time, reduce the availability of illegal guns. Brazil has had ten years of gun control, this is not long enough to have reduced the total number of guns in circulation. Britian not only had 100 years of gun control, it has also had several amnesties to reduce the number of unregistered firearms. [edit: we have not banned guns, gun ownership is not illegal in the UK].
This is simple supply and demand economics, this is simple maths - you can either reduce the supply, or you can reduce the demand or you can do both, what you cannot do is neither. Addressing the causes of the demand is obviously the best solution - cure poverty, cure drug dependancy, cure drug trafficking, cure organised crime, cure violent crime, cure the glorification of guns, cure depression and mental illness, cure domestic abuse, cure all of the social and economic causes of violent crime - but first of all reduce the availability of guns to those people. Europe (and especially Britain) is not a paragon of virtue - we have all those "demand" problems and have not succeeded in reducing any of them by any appreciable degree - what we do have is a different attitude towards guns and killing, perhaps that is the result of having two world wars fought on our soil and having parents and grandparents who witnessed mass slaughter first hand, but that does not explain the attitude of my generation or my children's generation to guns.
As I have said, there are no short-term fixes for this problem, all viable solutions will take time to become effective.
Edited by Dean - December 22 2012 at 03:35
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:25 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Given the option between you having a gun during a burglary and you not having a gun, you would be indifferent to either choice?
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I think I would feel less likely to die if I wasn't a threat to the person holding a gun. Given my pacifism I really don't think I could or would fire the first shot. The odds are stacked against me winning any shoot-out.
I am not uncomfortable with guns, nor am I unfamilar with them - I grew up with guns and I have owned guns, my uncle was president of a police gun-club and I had access to a wide varitey of firearms. In my youth I was a pretty good a shot and could slaughter paper targets, clays and tin cans with wild abandon - what I could never do was shoot at a living creature, even a rat.
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What?
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:09 |
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Another vague statistic is you are several times more likely to get shot if you carry a gun than if you are not. Of course there are many reasons for this .
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Help me I'm falling!
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 03:03 |
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Given the option between you having a gun during a burglary and you not having a gun, you would be indifferent to either choice?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 02:26 |
How many house burglaries happen when the house is occupied? An occupied house, whether the occupant is armed or not, is an unnecessary complication and increases the chances of getting caught. A seasoned house-breaker can get into any house no matter what domestic security is in place, if you are protected like Fort Knox then you are advertising that you have something worth protecting - the burglar is not to know what that is. What it does protect against is opportunistic bandits who see an open window and are in like Flinn.
I know people don't like statistics because they can be used to tell whatever story you want to tell but that's because people are very bad at interpreting and understanding numeric information, the numbers themselves do not lie: comparisons of the burglary rates per country show no correlation to gun control (or lack of) - that means they cannot be used to show that gun control does or does not work but can they be used to show that gun ownership is not a deterrent.
Nor is gun ownership a viable means of defence during a house break-in, as Chester said - the bandit has the advantage every time and think about it - you own a gun to stop him shooting you and he carries one to stop you shooting him - this is not an even contest - if he sees a gun he will fire.
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What?
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: December 22 2012 at 00:05 |
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Well, Jim, if you have the resources and desire to make a fortress of your home, yes, you are right, the chances of them catching you by surprise is little. However, back in 97, while living in an apartment with sliding glass doors and watching television, a rock came crashing through that door. Now it just so happened it was some punk kids just causing havoc in the hood. But if it had been armed thugs, they could have walked right in on us and even had I had a gun (I've never owned one), they would have caught us completely by surprise and there would have been nothing we could have done about it. Of course I will no longer live in an apartment with sliding glass doors. But in most instances, if a criminal really wants to get into your house and catch you by surprise (a home invasion), there's not much you can do about it unless you have your house locked up tighter than fort knox.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: December 21 2012 at 22:47 |
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I'll come around when it's safer.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17309
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Posted: December 21 2012 at 22:40 |
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Well Doc, you're right. If you leave your door open. Then he would have the element of surprise.
If you have decent locking doors and windows, forcing perp to break into your home, you probably would have time to load the welcoming committee. I invested in security glass storms with three point locks, deadbolts and good doors behind them, and glass block on the basement well windows after our burglary.
Sure they can still get in if they want to bad enough, but they will have to make some noise which will give us a bit of time if we're home. All you can do is make it harder for them, those wonderful examples of humanity.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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smartpatrol
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2012
Location: My Bedroom
Status: Offline
Points: 14169
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Posted: December 21 2012 at 22:32 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
society in general
did not buy the guns and killed people with them...
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Well, why do most serial killers and mass murderers kill? Usually to get attention, or to make their mark/get revenge on society. We always make such big deals about these things. Yes, they are very tragic, horrible events, and it's fine to feel sad/mad and grieve, but News channels have 24 hour updates on these things, people keep talking about it for weeks after. People make films about serial killers. They're getting what they want. We're giving them what they want. If we made a smaller deal of it, ya know, make a news story or two, make a blog post, grieve for a bit, and move on. This won't completely stop shootings like this one, but they will certainly decrease I think.
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