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Joined: May 28 2005
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Posted: February 26 2012 at 16:38
40footwolf wrote:
I think Bill Bruford, as technical as he was, is also kind of a groove drummer, and that seems to have fallen out of fashion in rock lately.
I tend to agree with this part of a Steven Wilson interview on UltimateGuitar.com:
Now the way they made those records is very, very different to the way I was taught to make records or the way I learnt to make records. ‘Cause I learnt to make records in the kind of the beginning of what we call the computer recording era. Things like going into a studio with a band and just setting up and playing as a group, I never really did that; I never did that on any of my albums. It was always about overdubbing and meticulously kind of analyzing every aspect and controlling everything and having the drummer play for example to a tempo track so he never speeded up and he never slowed down.
Well, those bands never did that. And you know what? The records sound better—they just sound better. The drummer is speeding up and slowing down and the band are not always together; the singer is sometimes out of key a bit and the records just sound fantastic. There’s leakage on all the instruments from every other instrument because they’re all in a studio; they’re all in a room playing together. I mean all that stuff is everything I was told you shouldn’t do and everybody from my generation was told you shouldn’t do: get complete separation; have the drummer play to a tempo track and all that stuff. Tune the vocal with Auto-Tone or Melodyne or whatever it is. Those guys never did that on those records and those records are the best records we’ve ever had in my opinion. In my opinion those records, the early ‘70s records if you listen to bands like Crimson or Led Zeppelin or whoever that is, those records will probably never be bettered. And they had none of that sh*t going on.
that's exactly what makes modern music mostly boring to me - they simply don't take any risks anymore. everything has to be "perfect", which also makes it ultimately boring. hardly anyone records an album live in the studio anymore, as many bands in the late 60s and early 70s had to do simply due to financial problems. granted that albums recorded that way don't sound "perfect", but they definitely sound more exciting. as to the drumming: I like it when a drummer just goes with the music and plays whatever comes to his mind; that's how drumming should be, in my opinion. many of the drummers iin the late 60s and early 70s did that. cutting and copying certain parts of the drumming so that the drumming sounds exactly alike in certain passages is totally insane, in my opinion
Edited by BaldJean - February 26 2012 at 16:43
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
I think Bill Bruford, as technical as he was, is also kind of a groove drummer, and that seems to have fallen out of fashion in rock lately.
I tend to agree with this part of a Steven Wilson interview on UltimateGuitar.com:
Now the way they made those records is very, very different to the way I was taught to make records or the way I learnt to make records. ‘Cause I learnt to make records in the kind of the beginning of what we call the computer recording era. Things like going into a studio with a band and just setting up and playing as a group, I never really did that; I never did that on any of my albums. It was always about overdubbing and meticulously kind of analyzing every aspect and controlling everything and having the drummer play for example to a tempo track so he never speeded up and he never slowed down.
Well, those bands never did that. And you know what? The records sound better—they just sound better. The drummer is speeding up and slowing down and the band are not always together; the singer is sometimes out of key a bit and the records just sound fantastic. There’s leakage on all the instruments from every other instrument because they’re all in a studio; they’re all in a room playing together. I mean all that stuff is everything I was told you shouldn’t do and everybody from my generation was told you shouldn’t do: get complete separation; have the drummer play to a tempo track and all that stuff. Tune the vocal with Auto-Tone or Melodyne or whatever it is. Those guys never did that on those records and those records are the best records we’ve ever had in my opinion. In my opinion those records, the early ‘70s records if you listen to bands like Crimson or Led Zeppelin or whoever that is, those records will probably never be bettered. And they had none of that sh*t going on.
Joined: March 21 2008
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Posted: February 26 2012 at 10:47
TODDLER wrote:
jude111 wrote:
I know jazz drumming's been talked about, but what about other black forms of rhythmic music? Namely, soul and funk. If you were a drummer in the 70s, you *had* to be paying attention and groovin' to what Sly was doing, and Wonder, and later, P-Funk. (Check out, for example, Bowie's late 70s albums.)
Having said that, I know that more than a few prog bands had a total absence of "black" in their music. Genesis, for example. (This isn't a criticism: it's one thing I love about it - it's why their music was able to so successfully evoke an earlier period in English history, as well as other classes. I believe it was intentional.) Whereas, listen to DSOTM and WYWH and you just *know* PF was listening to hard soul and funk (and gospel too), and this is reflected in Mason's (under-rated) style.
The only piece which sounds close to "Black rhythmic music" is "Los Endos". The piece is performed by Phil Collins and Chester T. (?) (da?) and is very African, Latin, and very dance oriented. It's the live version from "Seconds Out" that comes to mind. Sly gave a lot of secret hand signals to the musicians on stage. The hand signals were combined with cues that were obvious to the audience only in the sense that they thought it was part of the act. This takes hours of practice where the band leader trains the musicians at rehearsal to memorize about 20 different signals.
i think some Genesis songs like Behind the Lines is ofteh criticized for sounding to motown or funky, and they had Earth, Wind and Fire horn section on Abacabs second track No Replay At All, and Collins is influenced by Billy Cobham and Jazz fusion and Motown he is the sole jazzy dude in Genesis, some of his grooves is jazz triplets and sometimes Phil Collins sounds similar to Jeff Porcaro, who was his main influence on the groove to the song Misunderstanding, which was influenced by Hold the Line by Toto
I know jazz drumming's been talked about, but what about other black forms of rhythmic music? Namely, soul and funk. If you were a drummer in the 70s, you *had* to be paying attention and groovin' to what Sly was doing, and Wonder, and later, P-Funk. (Check out, for example, Bowie's late 70s albums.)
Having said that, I know that more than a few prog bands had a total absence of "black" in their music. Genesis, for example. (This isn't a criticism: it's one thing I love about it - it's why their music was able to so successfully evoke an earlier period in English history, as well as other classes. I believe it was intentional.) Whereas, listen to DSOTM and WYWH and you just *know* PF was listening to hard soul and funk (and gospel too), and this is reflected in Mason's (under-rated) style.
The only piece which sounds close to "Black rhythmic music" is "Los Endos". The piece is performed by Phil Collins and Chester T. (?) (da?) and is very African, Latin, and very dance oriented. It's the live version from "Seconds Out" that comes to mind. Sly gave a lot of secret hand signals to the musicians on stage. The hand signals were combined with cues that were obvious to the audience only in the sense that they thought it was part of the act. This takes hours of practice where the band leader trains the musicians at rehearsal to memorize about 20 different signals.
I know jazz drumming's been talked about, but what about other black forms of rhythmic music? Namely, soul and funk. If you were a drummer in the 70s, you *had* to be paying attention and groovin' to what Sly was doing, and Wonder, and later, P-Funk. (Check out, for example, Bowie's late 70s albums.)
Having said that, I know that more than a few prog bands had a total absence of "black" in their music. Genesis, for example. (This isn't a criticism: it's one thing I love about it - it's why their music was able to so successfully evoke an earlier period in English history, as well as other classes. I believe it was intentional.) Whereas, listen to DSOTM and WYWH and you just *know* PF was listening to hard soul and funk (and gospel too), and this is reflected in Mason's (under-rated) style.
I agree. And I adore funk drumming, it's one of the things that makes albums like Wish You Were Here really good. James Brown's drummer(s?) was excellent. It's almost the bridge between jazz and rock. Crimson had it covered, Yes to a degree, Supertramp for sure......... Caravan, ABSOLUTELY, and these tend to be my favoured prog groups. They have the interesting music, set to the grooviest beats.
I think that there are still many great great drummers from the 70s which still sound original. A lot of them for me have probably a more flexible "jazzy" feel to them a lot of times. Guys like Robert Wyatt, Phil Collins, Bill Bruford, Jaki Libezeit (I totally forgot how to spell his last name. Can's drummer), Pip Pyle, Chris Cutler (big emphasis on his style)- still sound great. Can't emphasize how important a good drummer is, just makes a record. If his style is original- it just makes everything so much better.
Joined: April 13 2010
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Posted: February 26 2012 at 08:19
jude111 wrote:
I know jazz drumming's been talked about, but what about other black forms of rhythmic music? Namely, soul and funk. If you were a drummer in the 70s, you *had* to be paying attention and groovin' to what Sly was doing, and Wonder, and later, P-Funk. (Check out, for example, Bowie's late 70s albums.)
Having said that, I know that more than a few prog bands had a total absence of "black" in their music. Genesis, for example. (This isn't a criticism: it's one thing I love about it - it's why their music was able to so successfully evoke an earlier period in English history, as well as other classes. I believe it was intentional.) Whereas, listen to DSOTM and WYWH and you just *know* PF was listening to hard soul and funk (and gospel too), and this is reflected in Mason's (under-rated) style.
I agree. And I adore funk drumming, it's one of the things that makes albums like Wish You Were Here really good. James Brown's drummer(s?) was excellent. It's almost the bridge between jazz and rock. Crimson had it covered, Yes to a degree, Supertramp for sure......... Caravan, ABSOLUTELY, and these tend to be my favoured prog groups. They have the interesting music, set to the grooviest beats.
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Posted: February 25 2012 at 20:24
I know jazz drumming's been talked about, but what about other black forms of rhythmic music? Namely, soul and funk. If you were a drummer in the 70s, you *had* to be paying attention and groovin' to what Sly was doing, and Wonder, and later, P-Funk. (Check out, for example, Bowie's late 70s albums.)
Having said that, I know that more than a few prog bands had a total absence of "black" in their music. Genesis, for example. (This isn't a criticism: it's one thing I love about it - it's why their music was able to so successfully evoke an earlier period in English history, as well as other classes. I believe it was intentional.) Whereas, listen to DSOTM and WYWH and you just *know* PF was listening to hard soul and funk (and gospel too), and this is reflected in Mason's (under-rated) style.
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Posted: February 25 2012 at 08:40
This is an example where I relate to modern rock drumming. Then again, AiC were very inventive and, like on this song, came up with great patterns rather than just going fill-crazy.
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Posted: February 25 2012 at 06:18
I very much agree with thehallway's and rogerthat's posts, I never liked neither the sound nor the sensibility of modern rock drummers (which is also one of the reasons I find it very hard to get into most contemporary progressive rock). I've always preferred jazz or jazz-influenced drumming.
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Posted: February 25 2012 at 05:25
Ditto, I don't really like a loud drum tone unless the music is heavy enough to support it. I like that kind of drumming in metal, specifically styles like thrash or death metal. Definitely not in heavy metal or hard rock where I feel groove is more important.
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Posted: February 25 2012 at 05:16
^ I've seen that vid before. A very funky yet subdued performance.
Maybe my predicament is that I just like jazz drummers. I'd take a funk beat over a rock one any day. However, I'm also a huge fan of what I'd call "beat drummers" (Starr, Watts, Steel....) My favourite rock drummer is probably Carl Palmer, who is hardly in the metal/hard vein I was talking about yesterday. Although he does bring A LOT of power to the kit.
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Posted: February 25 2012 at 04:18
thehallway wrote:
Slightly related: I really don't dig the modern sound of the drum kit used on basically every rock/metal/prog release since the millennium. That thump of a kick drum, the really heavy "whack" on the snare, and in general a clinical, sterile, peaky way of producing the kit. I hate it, so in a sense that helps the older drum recordings seem better.
What seems to have disappeared somewhere is the sound of a kit being played; it has turned into a mere rhythm generator (whether those rhythms are metronomic or really complex). I appreciate the immense skill of people like Mike Portnoy, but why, with him, do I feel like I'm being slapped 'round the face with the word "virtuosity", when with Billy Cobham I feel I am hearing a performance, complete with all the nuances and variation in areas other than rhythm?
Why does the snare now make exactly the same noise every time it is struck? Why do the toms cut through everything with the urgency of a tribal warlord? Why does the kick drum in any rock band now induce a headache in me?
A genuine question: is it the players or the production? And, does anybody else agree with me?
To respond specifically to your post now, I think drum equipment itself has changed. At least, that's what a musician friend of mine said...that it is tough to reproduce the tone of a Bruford or Bonham with contemporary equipment. But someone like Portnoy also has a very different approach from Cobham or any of the great drummers of that era. Their playing was responsive and fluid. Portnoy's style is ultimately much more rooted in metal and for him, crushing power is important. I think the problem, if anything, is DT's music is simply not extreme enough to warrant that style of drumming; I could understand Lombardo or Hoglan playing like that because the music calls for it.
Take this performance, it seems to be rendered with altogether different sensibilities from the likes of someone like Portnoy and the drums sound quite beautiful:
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Posted: February 24 2012 at 20:03
JS19 wrote:
thehallway wrote:
Slightly related: I really don't dig the modern sound of the drum kit used on basically every rock/metal/prog release since the millennium. That thump of a kick drum, the really heavy "whack" on the snare, and in general a clinical, sterile, peaky way of producing the kit. I hate it, so in a sense that helps the older drum recordings seem better.
What seems to have disappeared somewhere is the sound of a kit being played; it has turned into a mere rhythm generator (whether those rhythms are metronomic or really complex). I appreciate the immense skill of people like Mike Portnoy, but why, with him, do I feel like I'm being slapped 'round the face with the word "virtuosity", when with Billy Cobham I feel I am hearing a performance, complete with all the nuances and variation in areas other than rhythm?
Why does the snare now make exactly the same noise every time it is struck? Why do the toms cut through everything with the urgency of a tribal warlord? Why does the kick drum in any rock band now induce a headache in me?
A genuine question: is it the players or the production? And, does anybody else agree with me?
See that's weird because one of the biggest turn offs for me about 70s music is the 'sloppy' production on the drums. I just feel more comfortable hearing that 'polished' more forceful drum sound.
This is exactly what I was talking about earlier, there's a huge cultural shift in the way rock is perceived. I don't know how and where it came to take root because I agree with thehallway; I do find Cobham more expressive and I accept that expression may entail some human imprecision and imperfection. If I wanted something cold and precise, I would rather listen to electronic music because it's often much more adventurous, esp electroacoustic stuff, in terms of structure, instead of simply piling riff upon bludgeoning riff.
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Posted: February 24 2012 at 14:43
thehallway wrote:
Slightly related: I really don't dig the modern sound of the drum kit used on basically every rock/metal/prog release since the millennium. That thump of a kick drum, the really heavy "whack" on the snare, and in general a clinical, sterile, peaky way of producing the kit. I hate it, so in a sense that helps the older drum recordings seem better.
What seems to have disappeared somewhere is the sound of a kit being played; it has turned into a mere rhythm generator (whether those rhythms are metronomic or really complex). I appreciate the immense skill of people like Mike Portnoy, but why, with him, do I feel like I'm being slapped 'round the face with the word "virtuosity", when with Billy Cobham I feel I am hearing a performance, complete with all the nuances and variation in areas other than rhythm?
Why does the snare now make exactly the same noise every time it is struck? Why do the toms cut through everything with the urgency of a tribal warlord? Why does the kick drum in any rock band now induce a headache in me?
A genuine question: is it the players or the production? And, does anybody else agree with me?
See that's weird because one of the biggest turn offs for me about 70s music is the 'sloppy' production on the drums. I just feel more comfortable hearing that 'polished' more forceful drum sound.
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Posted: February 24 2012 at 12:47
Horizons wrote:
Metal wise i prefer Brann Dailor, one of my favorite drummers. Aginor can back me up on his skill, as he is a big fan too.
Brann is fantastic, spessialy on Sleeping Giant, and he foes mad on Where Strides the Behemoth (and on the entire Remission albuM)
i also like a drummer named Matt Cameron should be mentioned, put on some Soundgarden and focus mainly on the drums, as a drummer i think he is one of the best, but he is not often brought into discussion coos he playas in the cursed style of grunge were musicality is not the focus from the fans but the lyrics and feel of the music, Matts drumming is not in the focus of the listener, but if you focus on it he is really a power house, less so then Grohl, but with more fines and do more wow moments on drums, cause he knows how to do it, how to play offbeat ride or china while playing straight with the rest, which is common in jazz or jazz rock to manipulate the time-feel,
have you ever mainly focused on Matts drumming Horizons
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70s Prog Drumming to Modern Ears
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40footwolf wrote:
Brann is fantastic, spessialy on Sleeping Giant, and he foes mad on Where Strides the Behemoth (and on the entire Remission albuM)