Why don't most people love our beloved music?

Henry Plainview wrote:   rogerthat wrote: Alitare wrote: I never said music didn't exist. I said the inherent 'goodness' or 'badness' of music does not exist. But you had earlier asked the question that how can a toddler wailing on a toy piano be called objectively bad music? My point is it would not even be music if he was just banging keys randomly, so the question of whether it is good or bad music does not arise.  Within the realm of whatever IS music, we cannot prove what is inherently bad or good music, I agree. You will, on the other hand, get most people to agree that the same toddler playing some 'musical' crap with horrible tones is terrible music. That is not proof but it is highly persuasive and most music discourse goes around on persuasion, not proof. I would call a toddler playing an instrument poorly music. It's not music that I want to listen to, but that doesn't mean nobody finds value in it. Who am I to say that they're wrong? If we say playing an instrument poorly is not music, what is the exact cut off point of skill that makes it noise versus music? If you can't define that then I think the term is useless. To be honest, I'm not sure that music exists at all, and I know that sounds silly but there it is.

I still disagree.  If it's not in any melody or rhythm whatsoever (regardless of how correctly or not the melody or rhythm is reproduced), it is not music.  It's not a question of making mistakes or lack of skill so you are confusing the issue here. If an actual song is played badly, it's still music. But if the sounds don't constitute any kind of musical pattern whatsoever, it is just sound.  So, it's not a question of skill and trying to find a cut off point for it, there must necessarily be some music being made from the playing. And I have no objection if somebody does find value in it, possibly the kid and his parents would. But that somebody finds value in it does not also make it music either.  It's your wish if you want to get semantic about it, but music as sensed by human ears is completely different from other sounds, there is no scope for confusion here. I don't even believe that if an actual kid banged totally random keys on the piano, people would say that the kid is playing something.  But if you want to argue for the sake of arguing, it's your choice.

Henry Plainview wrote: Well I do believe in free will. ;-) I would make a distinction between the organization of sound by cosmic forces and the organization of sound by the human brain. If you think that cosmic forces count as organized sound, then yes, everything is music, but I think it's a bit simpler and smarter to say sound intentionally organized by human beings and presented as music. But if someone wants to call those things music, I don't actually care.

Henry Plainview wrote:   rogerthat wrote: Alitare wrote: I never said music didn't exist. I said the inherent 'goodness' or 'badness' of music does not exist. But you had earlier asked the question that how can a toddler wailing on a toy piano be called objectively bad music? My point is it would not even be music if he was just banging keys randomly, so the question of whether it is good or bad music does not arise.  Within the realm of whatever IS music, we cannot prove what is inherently bad or good music, I agree. You will, on the other hand, get most people to agree that the same toddler playing some 'musical' crap with horrible tones is terrible music. That is not proof but it is highly persuasive and most music discourse goes around on persuasion, not proof. I would call a toddler playing an instrument poorly music. It's not music that I want to listen to, but that doesn't mean nobody finds value in it. Who am I to say that they're wrong? If we say playing an instrument poorly is not music, what is the exact cut off point of skill that makes it noise versus music? If you can't define that then I think the term is useless. To be honest, I'm not sure that music exists at all, and I know that sounds silly but there it is.

Slartibartfast wrote: I totally reject the notion that you can't dance to prog.  The Catherine Wheel,  Fred Frith's various dance albums.  You just have to be creative.  Hell, square dancing can be interesting even if you don't care for the music.

It's quite simple, actually....you can't dance to it (unless you want to end up looking like a lurching spastic or something!)

Yoy mean Issa? I can deal with Jane. She's harmless. Sort of like Kate Bush meets Sara McLachlan.Thing about Diana is that I realy liked herwhen she started out but she doesn't really do any original material. I think she's on a one woman show tour right now. Just her on piano. No band. Don't know what she sees in Elvis Costello. Escapes me. You would expect her to be with someone like Jon Bon Jovi. That wouldn't siuprise me. I can't see what La Toya sees in Bob either. I mean if I was a woman I don't think I'd be flirting with Bob. Can you imagine being a woman and having to adopt to his rigidity. .


Edited by Vibrationbaby - May 17 2011 at 15:07

Vibrationbaby wrote: Sometimes I have no choice but to listen to Céline's catcalls. I often meet a friend in Place Ville Marie for coffee in the morning and they play this goddam Céline Dion repeating sampler overthe PA. It is really f**king annoying. In Montréal you have to look at her ugly face in the newspapers on almost a daily basis. It used to be a lot worse but that flame has been passed on to Lady Gaga. When Céline calved those latest two little freaks it was everywhere. Just makes you want to drink your own diareah. Believe me thare are a lot of Céline haters in Québec, it' s not only me. That creepy pedophile manager husband / manager always says that they won't accept any cheap criticism, but they still get plenty of it . Sarah McLachlan I can tolerate sometimes. But when this Lilith Fair militant women's lib crap came out I started to throw up. I have to admit unlike Céline she can sing. She does have a grasp of whatshe's doing with her mezzo-soprano voice but her songs are just too wishy washy. As far as Canadian female vocalists that I'll listen to. Lee Aaron ( Karen Greening ) Met her once, Alanah Myles and Pamela Morgan .I''ll even listen to Rita McNeil and Anne Murray. Randy Bachman is a real good Canadian female vocalist too.

^^
Nice Avatar. NASA Lockheed SR-71A Blackbird.

As much as I absolutely loathe Celine, it's not like she's a sheer abysmal drop from the hideously overrated Diana Ross.  Just what all are we going to tick off as "not music"?   But I do get where his irritation comes from. In my country too, people are still hung up on Celine Dion...as such on mid 80s to early 90s pop and rock music that listeners in the West have grown out of but India still can't get enough of.   I mean Celine, Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, GNR, Bryan Adams, even Aqua.  

In a very personal way, I classify music as "Music to dance to" and "Music to listen to".