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The Truth 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 19 2009
Location: Kansas
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Points: 21795
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 Posted: January 15 2011 at 22:33 |
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This was a great Walter thread.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 22:12 |
I don't think Iron Man was at all influenced by Schizoid. Why should it be? Sabbath were already playing some of the songs off the eponymous debut in 1969. Iron Man was clearly a continuation of that style, no more. By extending your logic, we could argue that any kind of heavy rock music is derivative of Schizoid, which is a ridiculous position. Perhaps, we should say that Schizoid itself was then derivative of Sunshine of your love (Cream) because much more striking resemblances can be observed between that song and NIB. 
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 19:14 |
 Nathaniel607 wrote:
What did you have in mind? |
I don't know, Jean Louis or Negura Bunget maybe
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 18:51 |
akajazzman wrote:
"Do you learn music theory? It doesn't matter how many albums you listen to, if you don't know theory then it doesn't matter. If you do know music theory, it's even more surprising you'd even consider Black Sabbath stole from King Crimson"
Now the point of the thread of "derivative". I didn't say any of these bands stole, because I don't think they did. Its a continuum of influence, which includes using other bands licks or the way they put together a solo. And part where both songs take off with the guitars is more than just a guitar solo, the whole band changes up the songs similarly at that point.
That is what in fact made 21st Century SM so darn impactful at that time. Sure there was plenty of hard rock tunes before it, but nothing sounded, arranged, structured quite like it up to that point. So no, there weren't many songs that sounded like21st Century SM in late 1969. Then along comes Iron Man the next year that had similar points of reference to 21st Century SM .
BTW, I think Sabbath are better than 90% of the bands on this web site.
ANd yes, I learned enough theory, songs, scales and guitar chops to know a similar sounding song when I hear/play it.
Hey, I'm a nice guy. And Nathan you seem like a GREAT guy! We should hang out together sometime. Take care |
I guess I can see what you mean from an "inspired by" standpoint - but I still really don't see many similarities, but okay, :D.
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akajazzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 124
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:31 |
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akajazzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 124
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:25 |
"Do you learn music theory? It doesn't matter how many albums you listen to, if you don't know theory then it doesn't matter. If you do know music theory, it's even more surprising you'd even consider Black Sabbath stole from King Crimson"
Now the point of the thread of "derivative". I didn't say any of these bands stole, because I don't think they did. Its a continuum of influence, which includes using other bands licks or the way they put together a solo. And part where both songs take off with the guitars is more than just a guitar solo, the whole band changes up the songs similarly at that point.
That is what in fact made 21st Century SM so darn impactful at that time. Sure there was plenty of hard rock tunes before it, but nothing sounded, arranged, structured quite like it up to that point. So no, there weren't many songs that sounded like21st Century SM in late 1969. Then along comes Iron Man the next year that had similar points of reference to 21st Century SM .
BTW, I think Sabbath are better than 90% of the bands on this web site.
ANd yes, I learned enough theory, songs, scales and guitar chops to know a similar sounding song when I hear/play it.
Hey, I'm a nice guy. And Nathan you seem like a GREAT guy! We should hang out together sometime. Take care
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akajazzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 124
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:21 |
"Do you learn music theory? It doesn't matter how many albums you listen to, if you don't know theory then it doesn't matter. If you do know music theory, it's even more surprising you'd even consider Black Sabbath stole from King Crimson"
Now the point of the thread of "derivative". I didn't say any of these bands stole, because I don't think they did. Its a continuum of influence, which includes using other bands licks or the way they put together a solo. And part where both songs take off with the guitars is more than just a guitar solo, the whole band changes up the songs similarly at that point.
That is what in fact made 21st Century SM so darn impactful at that time. Sure there was plenty of hard rock tunes before it, but nothing sounded, arranged, structured quite like it up to that point. So no, there weren't many songs that sounded like21st Century SM in late 1969. Then along comes Iron Man the next year that had similar points of reference to 21st Century SM .
BTW, I think Sabbath are better than 90% of the bands on this web site.
ANd yes, I learned enough theory, songs, scales and guitar chops to know a similar sounding song when I hear/play it.
Hey, I'm a nice guy. And Nathan you seem like a GREAT guy! We should hang out together sometime. Take care
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A B Negative
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 02 2006
Location: Methil Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1594
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:15 |
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Sabbath's Iron Man sounds more like KC's 21st Century Schizoid Man than Ozzy's version of 21st Century Schizoid Man does.
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:40 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
that's the best you can come up with? Those two bands aren't particularly original
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Uz Jseme is pretty original to me at least. Maybe Birds and Building, but a suspect he would dismiss that as ripoff jazz fusion. Maybe something like Godsticks, but they aren't overtly complex.
What did you have in mind?
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
The notion of the post-modern pastiche is embedded in all post-89 thought. If in the eighties it was a novel and rather fringe position, it became the standard from the 90s on. The old modernist stance of looking forward and doing something new is effectively dead under the prevailing ethos of today. Its all about recycling old ideas in the current era, and technology allows any and all crumb-bums to imitate bygone classics. |
What. You're saying, the entire collective conciousness of the WORLD changed in such a way that new music is not possible?
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Forward-looking pre-89 fusions involved the application of new technologies and tonal colours previously unimaginable within an ever more complex popular music context. Post-89 theft just samples everything and uses cheap digital doohickeys to replicate the sounds of yesteryear. |
Oh my God. I cannot comprehend the madness you speak. You're saying that using a digital keyboard that can pretty much perfectly replicate an old moog is somehow worse than using the real thing? How can you state you believe in modernism and going forward and then condemn the usage of new technologies to make things cheaper and more simple?
Edited by Nathaniel607 - January 15 2011 at 16:48
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:29 |
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I love you Walter
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:28 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ayn Rand WalterDigsTunes wrote:
There is no place for whim in any human activity—if it is to be regarded as human. There is no place for the unknowable, the unintelligible, the undefinable, the non-objective in any human product. This side of an insane asylum, the actions of a human being are motivated by a conscious purpose; when they are not, they are of no interest to anyone outside a psychotherapist’s office. And when the practitioners of modern art declare that they don’t know what they are doing or what makes them do it, we should take their word for it and give them no further consideration.
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The is no place for music in post-89 humanity- if it is to be regarded as music.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:22 |
Ayn Rand WalterDigsTunes wrote:
There is no place for whim in any human activity—if it is to be regarded as human. There is no place for the unknowable, the unintelligible, the undefinable, the non-objective in any human product. This side of an insane asylum, the actions of a human being are motivated by a conscious purpose; when they are not, they are of no interest to anyone outside a psychotherapist’s office. And when the practitioners of modern art declare that they don’t know what they are doing or what makes them do it, we should take their word for it and give them no further consideration.
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Edited by Equality 7-2521 - January 15 2011 at 16:23
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:21 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog. |
Oh for f**ks sake.
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Prove me wrong. Oh, but that would imply that post-89 garage isn't absolutely derivative filth produced in a worthless digital age hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values. Poor you.
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Well, obviously, it's impossible since you are COMPLETELY set in your opinion. If I posted the most amazing music here, you would surely just immediately decry it.
Besides, what the hell do you mean by "hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values"?
The notion of the post-modern pastiche is embedded in all post-89 thought. If in the eighties it was a novel and rather fringe position, it became the standard from the 90s on. The old modernist stance of looking forward and doing something new is effectively dead under the prevailing ethos of today. Its all about recycling old ideas in the current era, and technology allows any and all crumb-bums to imitate bygone classics.
Finally, derivative does not mean bad. Most, if not all music is in some way derivative. And prog especially so. I mean, it basically started as a fusion between rock and jazz (or rock but more complex), so it's completely derived.
Forward-looking pre-89 fusions involved the application of new technologies and tonal colours previously unimaginable within an ever more complex popular music context. Post-89 theft just samples everything and uses cheap digital doohickeys to replicate the sounds of yesteryear.
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:20 |
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that's the best you can come up with? Those two bands aren't particularly original
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:13 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog. |
Oh for f**ks sake.
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Prove me wrong. Oh, but that would imply that post-89 garage isn't absolutely derivative filth produced in a worthless digital age hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values. Poor you.
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Well, obviously, it's impossible since you are COMPLETELY set in your opinion. If I posted the most amazing music here, you would surely just immediately decry it.
Besides, what the hell do you mean by "hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values"?
Finally, derivative does not mean bad. Most, if not all music is in some way derivative. And prog especially so. I mean, it basically started as a fusion between rock and jazz (or rock but more complex), so it's completely derived.
I suppose if I was going to give it a shot though, I'd go for;
or
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:58 |
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If you don't reply to him he makes his obligatory post and then leaves.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:52 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog. |
Oh for f**ks sake.
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Prove me wrong. Oh, but that would imply that post-89 garage isn't absolutely derivative filth produced in a worthless digital age hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values. Poor you.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:49 |
akajazzman wrote:
Black Sabbath: A great heavy metal band, but does anyone else thing that Iron Man may have taken a lick or two from 21st Century Schizoid Man? |
Both licks are played on guitar. The similarities seem to end there.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:48 |
1) Seriously. Distorted voices is a minor coincidence. They WERE writing a song about IRON MAN. As in, a robot. As in, probably with some kind of distorted, robot-like voice.
And because they liked what KC had done, with the basic concept of this alientated/different man thing Of course! A song about an alienated person! That is so original it music be plagiarism.
2) They don't have similar riffs at all. The rhythm of the main riff is vaguely similar, the chromatic riffs are chromatic so of course they sound similar. AND
3) That's kind of a popular cadence.
Look, you're the one that said "no, not remotely" that they sound nothing lilke each other.
That was another guy. But still - the riffs are no where near plagiarism levels of similarity, just not completely different.
4) Two songs with a guitar solo obviously means one was stolen.
thats not what I said. I said "And then both break into a very similar extended guitar break with very similar notes after the basic song is established." Its more than just two separate guitar solos. Same point. Guitar breaks/instrumental breaks in general are pretty damn common. I don't get how you can say they have similar notes... the Black Sabbath ones are pretty simple solos on the blues scale an over some chords, where as the King Crimson ones are fairly atonal madness over a crazy bass riff with some very dissonant noise in between.
Thanks for your very kind and thoughtful remarks about "then you have absolutely no concept of how music works." I have 4000 LPs/CDs, and have been playing pretty good guitar for 30 years, but maybe you're right.
Much appreciated. Do you learn music theory? It doesn't matter how many albums you listen to, if you don't know theory then it doesn't matter. If you do know music theory, it's even more surprising you'd even consider Black Sabbath stole from King Crimson.
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog. |
Oh for f**ks sake.
Snow Dog wrote:
Led Zep stealing everything? Wow that is very nearly funny. |
I'm not joking you know. They stole asstons of music. Here's a bunch of them;
And a quote from from Jimmy Page;
Jimmy Page wrote:
[A]s far as my end of it goes, I always tried to bring something fresh to anything that I used. I always made sure to come up with some variation. In fact, I think in most cases, you would never know what the original source could be. Maybe not in every case -- but in most cases. So most of the comparisons rest on the lyrics. And Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn't always do that -- which is what brought on most of the grief. They couldn't get us on the guitar parts of the music, but they nailed us on the lyrics. We did, however, take some liberties, I must say [laughs]. But never mind; we did try to do the right thing. |
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:45 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Most contemporary "prog". |
Are you serious?
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The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog.
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Oh Lordy.... the OP was a black and white flag to a colour blind bulls.h.i.t.t.e.r
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Agreed. Harmonium was quite silly for withholding the absolute truth from the OP.
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