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Do the Beatles get too much credit.. |
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moshkito 
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17798 |
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 Posted: March 31 2020 at 06:43 |
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Hi, You're the master of misquotes and changing the subject and understanding. The Beatles, specially on FM Radio here, were considered far more "serious" than most bands ... and that does not infer or mean, that they can not do a ditty about the queen! You would ... oh wait ... you're perfect ... you would not be strong enough to be an ARTIST and musician that did anything other than top ten at the nearest Red Lion and their circuit!   |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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The Anders
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Joined: January 02 2019 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 3533 |
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Posted: March 30 2020 at 17:47 |
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Not if you ask me. Whether one likes their music or not, it had a big impact on the music that came after them - at least until punk and new wave set in. Albums like Revolver, Sgt. Pepper and the White Album are still among my all time favourites.
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Posted: March 30 2020 at 08:11 |
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A gross underestimation or downplaying of the impact Beatles had but again, that's par for the course coming from you. Bit more serious? Just play Day In The Life and Please Release Me side by side. No amount of revisionism will be able to describe the gap betwixt the two as merely a matter of being bit more serious.
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SteveG
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Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
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Posted: March 30 2020 at 07:23 |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17798 |
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Posted: March 30 2020 at 07:00 |
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Hi, Steve ... this is not a competition about who knew/heard what ... I merely wrote what I had seen at that time and place ... and even with my limited English at the time, I remembered that much, but lesser known albums and materials would be a tough call for me ... but heck ... I heard Woody Guthrie ... and then laughed at Arlo's thing! Madison, WI and then Southern California are not exactly the whole story as it seems like it is seen ... there is a lot more that I do not know enough of ... but I don't even know how some states in America would even handle some of that stuff the NY and Cal played! Even Ohio and Illinois, specially when they donned live guns on people!
Edited by moshkito - March 30 2020 at 07:00 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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SteveG
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Posted: March 30 2020 at 06:50 |
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Edited by SteveG - March 30 2020 at 06:53 |
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moshkito
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Posted: March 30 2020 at 06:46 |
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Hi, The AM station in Madison that was "hip" trashed Pet Sounds, and immediately played a previous hit! Mayall was known by the folks that "knew" music ... for example, by 1969 in Madison, I knew Fairport Convention, John Renbourn, Pentangle, Chieftains, Incredible String Band and other things that were not as well known ... most folks that "knew" music would have a Mayall record or two. The first house we stayed in for a month (Danny and Mary's) in Oct 1965 had all these albums as well as things like Paul Butterfield, Bob Dylan (BonB) and other things ... all of which were only a good fit on the FM radio, not the AM hit parade! The whole thing gets blurred really bad when FM radio comes alive in America, which was in STEREO compared to AM Radio and it made a lot of the music sound better, thus a SGT P or MMT, these bigger albums were perfect fits, which the Monkees were a better fit for the AM Radio dial. So the stage/area between the late 60's and early 70's, a lot of the changes are the "new" exposure areas and centers and for most that meant the big cities, because they got it way before the small towns ever did ... like 5 to 10 years later! REMEMBER THAT! The only problem with the list is that it cross over to AM and then back to FM ... which makes it tougher to discuss altogether. Edited by moshkito - March 30 2020 at 06:53 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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SteveG
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Posted: March 30 2020 at 06:26 |
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 Pet Sounds was a commercial disappointment, The Elevators were not known outside of Texas and the California Bay Area, and Mayal And The Bluesbrakers were not even known in the US until Cream became popular and people started to back track. Remember that US radio at the time was the AM format with Frank Sinatra thrown in with artists like the Monkees, Petula Clark, The Association and Tom Jones.
Please don't make me compile a counter list as my stomach couldn't take it.
Edited by SteveG - March 30 2020 at 06:30 |
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moshkito
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Posted: March 30 2020 at 06:18 |
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Hi, IF they did push the boundaries, it was that compared to the top ten stuff, their material was a bit more serious and on "topic" instead of the usual bubble gum mentality of a lot of the top ten material, which has been like that for a long time, and the movie/recording studios loved it ... it made them money! (Remember that almost all recording studios were owned by film companies at that time in America ... an important consideration when it comes to making sure their material gets used and seen and sold.)
I think this is easier to discuss and formulate an opinion if we take the advent of FM radio in America ... the "heavier" and "longer" material by the Beatles was PERFECT for the new FM dial, which the AM pop craft music deliverer would never touch, until much later and then only as a "classic". No AM station is not going to play "Hey Jude" once a day ... which they helped sell better than FM radio! This was the case in Wisconsin and California ... with one very important consideration, which might make a difference and helps define FM radio in many ways ... in Madison their music was considered serious, informative, innovative and intelligent ... in California, no one gave a sheep dip and it was all about the clothes, the hair, the haircut, and the colors ... and the "cool" content ... their meaning was ... who cares, it's fun ... very similar to a lot of the things going on in PA. FM was way less formulaic until 1977 or 1978 when it started getting bought out by corporate folks, who immediately changed some of the formats to get rid of the stuff that was more offensive ... and they got deep fried (but had the corporate accounts behind them - Coke, Pepsi, Army, Navy) ... which meant they did not get a lot of credit for the punk stuff which had been huge in LA since at least 1970 ... see Iggy and the Stooges special by Jim Jarmusch and specially Iggy's discussion of their show at the Whiskey in 1972. Eat your heart out Sex Pimples?
I think for us to do this better, and properly, we would have to take into consideration the role and the radio stations ... for example ... I like to make a couple of jokes here ... NY and California alone sold half the Beatles albums in America! ... and of course, in Nashville, those folks made fun of the Beatles and trashed them on the air senselessly ... a losing battle for them which pretty much showed how far behind the times they were, and many of the "new wave" of country artists had a really hard time with those folks until way later. As for cultural "influence" ... it depends how we look at it ... in those days (in Madison), a lot of us RESPECTED the Beatles for having done something serious, artistic and inspirational ... I'm not sure I would say the same for the Rolling Stones ... however, when we got to California (late 1971) it was just a FAD and no one gave a heck about nothing ... just get stoned to be cool! And there was no interest or desire to accept and understand the valuable elements of the Beatles ... and then that joke about Nashville, is a nice wake up call ... and I can not tell you about any other area ... I'm not comfortable even discussing NY, but an area that big, could easily sell half a million in one day if all the stores carried it, AND that would make it automatically number one in America. In Europe this is different, because the scene was very much all over, and very clear in France, and in Germany (with a different name!!!), and even Italy, but the appreciation for it, is likely to have helped the music ... even Aphrodite's Child had at one time said that the Beatles were their inspiration, however, this was different ... in that the Beatles probably were the first rock band to really set a foot print in that area ... which woke up the kids to play electric instruments so to speak. Elvis, for example, was too American compared to the equivalent of a Zorba, or any other relative character in the other countries in Europe. I suppose that there are way too many different cultures that looked at things differently ... for example I can tell you that both the Beatles and Rolling Stones, doubled or tripled the effectiveness of pop music in Brazil ... and created a huge industry of music from 1964 on ... but you did not see the whole dress and haircut thing as much ... since Brazil already had its own haircut and dress conventions that were way out there! Something like that ... but I do not know the status or development of radio in Brazil at a time when they were in a dictatorship and a lot of the new music became another voice against the political systems. Maybe not on the air, but the sales were impossible to ignore! I hope I didn't make a mess of things ... !!! It's the best I could remember and put together!
Edited by moshkito - March 30 2020 at 06:48 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Posted: March 29 2020 at 23:12 |
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I don't completely agree with the notion that the 2-3 minute format songs weren't great (or overrated) or offered nothing innovative. No songs like Eleanor Rigby had been done by a popular band at that time. How long is Penny Lane? 3 min. Even LSD is just 3.5 min. Because is 3 min. Tomorrow Never Knows, Strawberry Fields, all eminently radio chartable length. Other than Day In The Life and I Want You, not many of their experimental songs were ever long. In that sense, I don't agree that their main achievement was pushing pop/rock to perfection because they instead broke stereotypes about pop/rock with every album from Rubber Soul up. They expanded the boundaries of pop/rock beyond belief and also far beyond any chart topping act since then, be it ABBA, Carpenters, Michael Jackson (and thereafter isn't even worth writing about as pop became completely formulaic and studio controlled). If anything, after the break up of Beatles, popular music quickly settled into the dichotomy of long format but interesting rock on the one side and safe and formulaic pop music ready for the radio on the other. The only time in pop history that the twain were brought together was during the reign of the Beatles. It is easy to see why some on a prog rock board - not talking about you as you say you are a fan - would sneer or disdain this achievement but it was an enormously important chapter in popular music and its influence is almost impossible to gauge.
Edited by rogerthat - March 29 2020 at 23:14 |
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jamesbaldwin
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Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6034 |
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Posted: March 29 2020 at 18:22 |
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PS I am a fan of the Beatles!
In my personal ranking Sgt Pepper White Album Abbey Road are great masterpiece, five stars. And even Magical Mystery Tour is (small) masterpiece |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: March 29 2020 at 13:48 |
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I cant consider Sgt Pepper a concept album: The idea of the album was that the Beatles did a show like Sg, and in fact the first song, RR is sung under the name of Billy Shears, but then starting from LSD sgt pepper puts together the songs that the Beatles had to them disposition, without any idea that could connect them. The Beatles themselves recognized it.
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Mortte
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Joined: November 11 2016 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 5538 |
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Posted: March 29 2020 at 11:06 |
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: March 29 2020 at 08:55 |
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You make it sound as though all truly original art can somehow be created in a vacuum uncontaminated by the past. Surely all great art references the past albeit sometimes very obliquely? For a genre to be said to exist, it has to exhibit some 'socially agreed upon conventions' that have accumulated over time which kinda makes creating a shiny brand new one a non-sequiter The Beatles turned many popular music conventions completely on their head during their recording career but their not having invented a genre in the process does not diminish their achievements. The idea that verse and chorus structures are incapable of yielding innovative and groundbreaking music just seems like a very lazy association of ideas to me.
Edited by ExittheLemming - March 31 2020 at 02:26 |
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: March 29 2020 at 08:13 |
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Yes, George Martin was very important for the sound and the arrangements of Beatles' songs, especially for John Lennon. In fact, Paul McCartney was able to do the arrangements of his songs on his own, instead Lennon said to Martin how he wanted the arrangemant of his songs and Martin did them. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Lewian
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Posted: March 29 2020 at 07:34 |
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This implies that there's a correct objective rating to which you could compare people's different ratings. I doubt that.
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moshkito
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Posted: March 29 2020 at 06:48 |
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Hi, And I would attribute this to George Martin a lot more than I would to the Beatles themselves. However, all 4 of them were not "dummies" and they learned quickly and moved forward, which made them better musicians, and more interested in what they did with their music ... which of course, disappeared totally when they all went solo ... which leaves one person standing ... George Martin. See the special on Amazon about GM ... it's free and it has some great things ... and there are some fun moments ... kids in a candy store with thousands of knobs ... what kid wouldn't have any fun with that? (... only prog'rs of course!!! )Edited by moshkito - March 29 2020 at 06:48 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Mortte
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Posted: March 28 2020 at 23:31 |
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Well, I am again saying theyīre the most important band in the pop history. But I agree that no-one can say them best band in the pop history as a common truth, because whatīs the best band is just subjective thing and there are no objective criterion from which any artist can say commonly best. I know many people who thinks theyīre best but itīs their opinion, not right or wrong.
About Ringo as a drummer, heīs of course not Bill Bruford, but heīs really great anyway, has always had his own style that not every drummer can imitate. I think Ringoīs drumplaying is essential part of Beatles greatness.
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 28 2020 at 23:30 |
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I agree with this except that I would rate McCartney and Ringo as the best musicians in the band. But that being said, this kind of overrating is normal for bands that get popular and doesn't lead to the generation of conspiracy theories. Geddy Lee gets voted as one of the top rock keyboardists, something he would not agree with himself. Hammett gets up in top rock guitarists lists and he simply doesn't belong there. Why, on this website, Gabriel and Jon Anderson are frequently voted as the best singers in prog rock and mainly because they sang for two of the most popular bands (in prog).
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 28 2020 at 22:45 |
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Of course not I believe they were highly influential, the were pioneers, but not the best band in history as most sites and magazines say. I read that John Lennon is one of the top 5 guitar players in Rock....Not remotely, McCartney is a bit closer, but not a top bass player either..I even read that Ringo is a top drummer...Please. Harrison is IMO the closer to a virtuoso by far- Why is Ringo in the R&R HoF? Will never understand. |
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rogerthat wrote: