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Garion81

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 21:52

^ True but they just ruined them psychologically and possibly sexually for the rest of their lives. It isn't like stealing something that can be replaced. I never said life without parole I said separate possibly hospitals but not in mainstream society. We have to keep from hiding from it and keeping it secret. this is a world wide disease.

Just for the record I have one daughter raped by another teenager, another possibly molested or raped after being drugged (she doesn't remember what happened but tested positive for the date rape drug) and now a niece raped and murdered. I think I have had enough of giving these people another chance. I think they are predators and have little good in them and if my girls still break down and cry and have their confidence stripped form them I am not going to shed one thought that this guy is separated form society for the rest of his life. Still I would let them live just not near me anymore. But yet many of you would say these are isolated cases. Ivan is right they need to have evidence and go through due process but I live in the reality that none of these guys who harmed my family will ever be found and they are free to continue their lives like nothing happened. Possibly to continue to molest and rape and kill. Maybe your family member is next.

So what am I just going to sit here and accept it? Is this okay for you?

And as for your signature quote College BB at Michigan was ruined becasue of the Fab 5 and the coach there. Not all college BB is the same. Well maybe wherever John Callipari coaches. Wink

Edited by Garion81 - April 04 2010 at 21:57

"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"

Henry Plainview View Drop Down

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 21:20

Garion81 wrote:

^ I don't know that answer HP but you backed up my point. I have my own reasons to be concerned about the subject of child abuse and I try and be objective about what I say and feel. I really feel until we understand it better and how to treat it these people should be separated from the general population when possible.after their first offense It is either that or accept the fact that someones child maybe your own will fall victim to this and most likely to continue to spread it when they get older. I am unwilling to do that.

Fair enough, but you have to realize that if one instance of sexual abuse is life without parole, you're going to have some problems, besides the obvious one of ending somebody's life for a crime that didn't end anybody else's.

Edited by Henry Plainview - April 05 2010 at 17:49

if you own a sodastream i hate you

micky

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 19:13

your post Brian reminds me of a terrible period of my life... and what ended up wrecking what was left of my previous marriage.. which wasn't much I suppose

makes me wonder what happened to the 14 year old that sexually assaulted my 5 year old daughter.... his family picked up and moved west after the court date... I remember, though of course he couldn't be prosecuted... he was supposed to get 'treatment'

upstanding family... we knew them and had used them for daycare for years... the father was a county trooper... great guy...

face it... there is no 'root' of evil... it is simply a fact of life...

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Garion81

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 19:05

^ I don't know that answer HP but you backed up my point. I have my own reasons to be concerned about the subject of child abuse and I try and be objective about what I say and feel. I really feel until we understand it better and how to treat it these people should be separated from the general population when possible.after their first offense It is either that or accept the fact that someones child maybe your own will fall victim to this and most likely to continue to spread it when they get older. I am unwilling to do that.

"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 18:34

Garion81 wrote:

The biggest problem with abuse is that for the most part is that is passed from generation to the next. Until we as a society decide enough is enough than this will continue.

And many child abusers were abused themselves. Should we start sterilizing the victims too?

if you own a sodastream i hate you

Chris S

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 14:11

wow...........................what a fine species we are. Let's all give ourselves a congratulatory pat on the back

This topic has virtually run it's course, may the guilty child molesters burn wherever for eternity. If you are a priest and you worry that you may be persecuted because facts show about 98% of those on trial are innocent, maybe find a new career. Same goes for teachers, parents. I know and hear that many church/denominations are concerned about their ' flocks' diminishing. I can see why. Shame on the Catholic Church and the Vatican, and shame on any other organisation or individual guilty of such atrocities.

Yahweh.........your time is nigh.

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A Person

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 13:50

Garion81 wrote:

The biggest problem with abuse is that for the most part is that is passed from generation to the next. Until we as a society decide enough is enough than this will continue.

I don't think mankind will ever be free from abuse of any kind.

Garion81

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 13:35

^ Agreed Ivan, tried in the press happens way to often. Still there is the underlying evil that if not brought to light will continue to haunt society and it's children. We have to be better, all of us, press, criminal justice systems, lawmakers and citizens.

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 13:26

Garion81 wrote:

Any person in a position of trust and care of children that abuses that trust must be tried and put away if guilty.

Any organisation that would impair or block the pursuit of justice and truth are accessories. I do not limit this to the churches.

The biggest problem with abuse is that for the most part is that is passed from generation to the next. Until we as a society decide enough is enough than this will continue.

I agree 100%, burn them if guilty, but first you need evidence, not just press articles or testimonies without prove.

In the same way I believe that if a Priest, teacher or whatever is accused and hung by the press (as it usually happens), the same press should clean the name of the person in first page if found innocent.

But this doesn't happen, I read rapist priest hundreeds of times in first page, but when 98% of this accused are found innocent...The same press says nothing.

A rapist priest sells, an innocent one doesn't.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 04 2010 at 13:27

Garion81

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 13:13

Any person in a position of trust and care of children that abuses that trust must be tried and put away if guilty.

Any organisation that would impair or block the pursuit of justice and truth are accessories. I do not limit this to the churches.

The biggest problem with abuse is that for the most part is that is passed from generation to the next. Until we as a society decide enough is enough than this will continue.

"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"

lazland

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 13:04

Slarti's quote from Lord Acton re absolute power corrupting absolutely, and also Micky's comments resonate with me a lot.

People need to think that it is not the religion or the beliefs themselves that are intrinsically rotten and corrupt, it is the institution of the church itself.

There is a famous quote from the 19th Century (I forget who by) by an English Protestant when, visiting the Inquisition chambers in Europe, turned to his companion, a devout Catholic, and said; "I really believe that there must be a divine and beautiful purpose to the universal church, one that carries an insurmountable truth, because only such a truth could escape such barbarity and cruelty".

That is, of course, from memory, but you get the gist. It's the people who are evil and the institutions where they ferment power, but I do still believe in the overall message of goodness and redemption, in spite of all that the world has to throw at us.

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Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 12:08

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

Innocent until proven guilty, but you have to go to trial...

Starti, please tell me what's the chance of a priest accused of rapé to get a fair trial?

Iván

The more well you're known, the harder it is to get a fair trial. The poorer you are, it's just the same. If you're stuck in the middle you're f**ked. Still I support our judicial system warts and all.

Edited by Slartibartfast - April 04 2010 at 12:09

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 12:03

Slartibartfast wrote:

Innocent until proven guilty, but you have to go to trial...

Starti, please tell me what's the chance of a priest accused of rapé to get a fair trial?

The public has convicted them before the trial
The media accuses them publicly

Some churches like the Westboro Baptist Church publish aberrations like

Priests Rape Boys: an air-tight, three word case against the Catholic church. The Catholic Church is the largest, most well-funded and organized pedophile group in the history of man! http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Other Churches like Jesus is Saviour publish aberrations like http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/high_aids_toll_among_priests.htm (Priests have 4 times more AIDS than general population )
Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6yDuxzjpxE

People read this in daily bases so why amazes you that some priests have to settle?

They won't get a fair trial in many cases.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 04 2010 at 12:09

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 11:45

Innocent until proven guilty, but you have to go to trial...
Hiding behind your religion, unacceptable.

Edited by Slartibartfast - April 04 2010 at 11:50

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 11:41

The Pessimist wrote:

Making the fact that priests get away with paedophilia, and a member of the public gets a lengthy prison sentence, disgusting.

About 1,200 priests were taken to courts in USA because of Paedophilia, less than 2% were convicted,

This means

41,406 (2006) Priests in USA
1,200 accused 2.89% of the total number
Less than 2% OF THE ACCUSED were convicted or settled
This means 0.04% of the USA priests were convicted or settled
We talk about 34% of rapist family members

You say a member of the public gets a lenghty prison..You live in fantasy, as lawyer I know this, only zbout 10% of the rape cases reach court, and I'm talking about general public, because kids hardly will accuse their parents, friends and family, plus the public humliation they suffer.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 04 2010 at 11:47

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 11:22

Right, here's the deal.

Paedophilia, as the vast majority agree, is wrong.

Priests, no matter what your belief is, are no better than the rest of us.

Meaning, we should all get the same treatment.

Making the fact that priests get away with paedophilia, and a member of the public gets a lengthy prison sentence, disgusting.

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 11:18

The Doctor wrote:

I don't think the coverup is just a problem with the church. Yes, it is reprehensible, but how many spouses who know their husbands are molesting their children turn a blind eye. How many neighbors highly suspect another neighbor of child abuse but do nothing. I think the problem is that the law provides no penalties for those who know or have evidence of abuse but do not act. At the very least, if a child comes to you and reports abuse, and you do not report it to the authorities, it shouldn't matter if your the suspects spouse, a priest, a bishop or a neighbor, you should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting child abuse. Children are unable to defend themselves and often turn to adults they think they can trust for help. Failure to provide that help, by reporting it to the authorities, is almost as reprehensible as those who perpetrate their depraved acts against the defenseless. Those who knew what was going on in the church but did nothing and covered it up should be prosecuted, but its not just a problem with the church. It is a problem with all of society.

That's a good point:

I found this statistics in the Children Health Encyclopedia under rape

Demographics

The 2000 Victim, Incident, and Offender Characteristics, published by the National Center for Juvenile Justice (NCJJ), analyzed sexual assault data collected by law enforcement agencies over a five-year span. The following characteristics were found to be significant among victims of sexual assault:

Age: Over two-thirds of reported victims of sexual assault were juveniles under the age of 18. Adolescents aged 12 to 18 years represented the largest group of victims at 33 percent; 20 percent were between the ages of six and 11; children younger than five years old and adults between 18 and 24 years of age each constituted 14 percent of victims. One out of every seven victims surveyed in the study was under the age of six.
Gender: Females were more than six times more likely to be a victim of sexual assault than males; more than 86 percent of victims were females. The great majority (99%) of the victims of forcible rapes were women, while men constituted the majority (54%) of the victims of forcible sodomy (oral or anal intercourse). Females are most likely to be the victim of sexual assault at age 14, while males are at most risk at age four.
Location: The residence of the victim was the most commonly noted location of sexual assault (70%). Other common locations included schools, hotels/motels, fields, woods, parking lots, roadways, and commercial/office buildings.

Similar statistics were gathered by the NCJJ regarding the perpetrators of rape and sexual assault. These characteristics included the following:

Age: Over 23 percent of offenders were under the age of 18; juveniles were more likely to be perpetrators of forcible sodomy and fondling. The remaining 77 percent of offenders were adults and were responsible for 67 percent of juvenile victims. For younger juvenile victims (under the age of 12), juvenile offenders were responsible for approximately 40 percent of assaults.
Gender: The great majority of all reported offenders were male (96%). The number of female offenders rose for victims under the age of six (12%), in contrast to 6 percent for victims aged six through 12, 3 percent for victims aged 12 through 17, and 1 percent for adult victims.
Relationship with offender: Approximately 59 percent of offenders were acquaintances of their victims, compared to family members (27%) or strangers (14%). Family members were more likely to be perpetrators against juveniles (34%) than against adults (12%). In contrast, strangers accounted for 27 percent of adult victims and 7 percent of juveniles.
Past offenses: In 19 percent of juvenile cases, the victim was not the only individual to be assaulted by the offender, compared to only 4 percent of adult cases.

So, 70% of the rapes to minors happen IN THEIR OWN HOUSES (Family, friends, teachers, etc), Churches, parrishs, etc aren't even mentioned.

But people place emphasis on the Catholic Church, not only any Church, but a specific one, when parents and friends are more likely to be rapists.

This doesn't excuse the rapist priests, but proves what the Doctor said, the problem is in human nature, no matter what the occupation of the rapest is.

There are 10 times more teachers ACCUSED of rape than priests, but nobody talks about closing schools, the number of rapist parents is incredibly higher, but nobody talks about taking all the kids from their parents.

Lets put things in it's place, rape happens anywhere,but a Catholic Priest sells more in a country like USA where the Catholics are a minority and when some "self proclaimed Churches" live to attack the Catholic Church.

There's another problem, the biggest scandals are in USA, where courts pay millions for anything, parents settle with rapists for a large amount of money or even worst innocent public figures pay millions to avoid scandals....I don't know if Michael Jackson was guilty or not...But would any of you would send your kid to sleep to a house of man suspicious of raping?

Don't you believe this people sent their kids praying they were molested and gain a lot of money?

I studied in a Catholic school as nearly 10% of Lima students go to Catholic schools, but there's NOT ONE CASE OF RAPE, maybe because our courts pay sh¡t to victims.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 04 2010 at 11:46

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 10:38

jampa17 wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Yes someone could possible misinterpret a part of a quote that has been translated several times over two millennia which was originally written by someone who never heard Jesus speak. Damn that Jesus guy.

Yeah... fun... but, what that have to do with the current topic...? really... I don't see any link at all with the current subject...

Really? I thought it was a direct response to that post right above that.

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 09:53

The Doctor wrote:

I don't think the coverup is just a problem with the church. Yes, it is reprehensible, but how many spouses who know their husbands are molesting their children turn a blind eye. How many neighbors highly suspect another neighbor of child abuse but do nothing. I think the problem is that the law provides no penalties for those who know or have evidence of abuse but do not act. At the very least, if a child comes to you and reports abuse, and you do not report it to the authorities, it shouldn't matter if your the suspects spouse, a priest, a bishop or a neighbor, you should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting child abuse. Children are unable to defend themselves and often turn to adults they think they can trust for help. Failure to provide that help, by reporting it to the authorities, is almost as reprehensible as those who perpetrate their depraved acts against the defenseless. Those who knew what was going on in the church but did nothing and covered it up should be prosecuted, but its not just a problem with the church. It is a problem with all of society.

Although I agree with the broad gist of your post I do think there is an aspect to this that has reared its ugly head in the past. During the early 90's I lived and worked on Orkney (a small island off the north coast of Scotland) where 9 children from the remote village of South Ronaldsay reported ritualistic abuse to social workers and were subsequently forcibly taken into foster care via a dawn raid of their respective homes. When the case came to trial it was found that there was not a shred of evidence to support the claims of the children and that many of the social workers who conducted the interviews were found to be culpable of wilfully extracting false testimonies from their interviewees. (You have to remember that the media hysteria re Satanic Child Abuse was at its peak at this time and the UK care professions were awash in theoretical literature from the US outlining the detection of such abuses)

I certainly would not condone in any way dismissing such claims out of hand and like everyone who has posted in this thread, find the actions of such individuals utterly repugnant. However, you must appreciate that everyone becomes a witch during a witch hunt. It would be practically impossible to implement legislation that compelled an individual to report to the authorities their suspicions, however remote, as to possible abuses. The concept of hearsay is still applicable in law i.e. in a criminal case it does not (without some notable exceptions) constitute evidence.

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Posted: April 04 2010 at 09:47

I totally agree with The Doctor.

Let me also make it clear that I have no problems with the catholics or the Catholic church whatsoever. I respect them and I treat them with the utmost friendliness. But as with alcoholics; a good friend does not give the alcoholic more alcohol. A good friend tries to cure the illness.

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