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harmonium.ro 
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 Posted: July 29 2009 at 10:21 |
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As I already said, it's about attitude, not opinion.
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 29 2009 at 10:03 |
Ah, Ok, so I understand that it is a requirement to not disagree with people so that you can remain in the club? Interesting. Do I get a special Opeth ring if I follow the rules? 
 harmonium.ro wrote:
^ It is an age issue, exceptions to the rule are just that, exceptions. And btw this site is open to any forms of progressive rock or progressive metal, not just what you call "prog". I choose not to call "prog" a lot of the progressive stuff that I like becuase of this kind of misunderstandings and prejudices. And your attitude on Opeth is not something which is shared by our community, and does not do you any favour as a credible member. |
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Jim
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
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Joined: August 18 2008
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Posted: July 29 2009 at 09:45 |
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^ It is an age issue, exceptions to the rule are just that, exceptions. And btw this site is open to any forms of progressive rock or progressive metal, not just what you call "prog". I choose not to call "prog" a lot of the progressive stuff that I like becuase of this kind of misunderstandings and prejudices. And your attitude on Opeth is not something which is shared by our community, and does not do you any favour as a credible member.
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 29 2009 at 08:15 |
Although I do have to take issue with your term "old timers" because I know quite a few people that are in their early twenties and several under 18 years of age that do agree that Progressive Metal is not PROG. They identify prog as the style of music that is played by the bands that I mentioned. So it is NOT an age issue. 
LanCaiHe wrote:
I see what you are saying. So, I must review Progressive Metal, so called, within it's own category Metal, to see if it is actually improving upon it's category, correct? So the said "Metal" music might have to be incorporating elements of more complex music, i.e. more unusual chord progressions, modulations, more free and liberal usage of modal thematic material, time signature changes etc. to be called Progressive Metal?
harmonium.ro wrote:
LanCaiHe wrote:
Good suggestion! However, the term Progressive Metal is sort of an "oxymoron" I suppose. Black Sabbath sounds more progressive now than the so-called Progressive Metal of today. hehe
harmonium.ro wrote:
Of course Opeth is not "prog". Opeth is progressive metal, which is not "prog" (like King Crimson, Gentle Giant, etc.). We should quit using "prog" when talking about modern progressive genres because old-timers don't know what we're talking about. 
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Not at all an oxymoron, you just haven't listened to progressive metal, and the little progressive metal you've listened you're not interested in understanding it as progressive metal because you simply don't like it and you define something as progressive if it "progresses" like Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Yes etc. did. (It's true though that there are many progressive metal bands that are not really very progressive, I'm not talking about the whole genre, but only about those bands who are progressive in a certain degree).
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Jim
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LanCaiHe
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Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
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Posted: July 29 2009 at 07:40 |
I see what you are saying. So, I must review Progressive Metal, so called, within it's own category Metal, to see if it is actually improving upon it's category, correct? So the said "Metal" music might have to be incorporating elements of more complex music, i.e. more unusual chord progressions, modulations, more free and liberal usage of modal thematic material, time signature changes etc. to be called Progressive Metal?
harmonium.ro wrote:
LanCaiHe wrote:
Good suggestion! However, the term Progressive Metal is sort of an "oxymoron" I suppose. Black Sabbath sounds more progressive now than the so-called Progressive Metal of today. hehe
harmonium.ro wrote:
Of course Opeth is not "prog". Opeth is progressive metal, which is not "prog" (like King Crimson, Gentle Giant, etc.). We should quit using "prog" when talking about modern progressive genres because old-timers don't know what we're talking about.
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Not at all an oxymoron, you just haven't listened to progressive metal, and the little progressive metal you've listened you're not interested in understanding it as progressive metal because you simply don't like it and you define something as progressive if it "progresses" like Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Yes etc. did. (It's true though that there are many progressive metal bands that are not really very progressive, I'm not talking about the whole genre, but only about those bands who are progressive in a certain degree).
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Jim
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
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Posted: July 29 2009 at 07:34 |
LanCaiHe wrote:
Good suggestion! However, the term Progressive Metal is sort of an "oxymoron" I suppose. Black Sabbath sounds more progressive now than the so-called Progressive Metal of today. hehe
harmonium.ro wrote:
Of course Opeth is not "prog". Opeth is progressive metal, which is not "prog" (like King Crimson, Gentle Giant, etc.). We should quit using "prog" when talking about modern progressive genres because old-timers don't know what we're talking about.
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Not at all an oxymoron, you just haven't listened to progressive metal, and the little progressive metal you've listened you're not interested in understanding it as progressive metal because you simply don't like it and you only define something as progressive if it "progresses" like Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Yes etc. did. (which is not the only way to progress musically but that's the only one interesting to you). (It's true though that there are many progressive metal bands that are not really very progressive, I'm not talking about the whole genre, but only about those bands who are progressive in a certain degree).
Edited by harmonium.ro - July 29 2009 at 07:38
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 29 2009 at 07:00 |
Good suggestion! However, the term Progressive Metal is sort of an "oxymoron" I suppose. Black Sabbath sounds more progressive now than the so-called Progressive Metal of today. hehe
harmonium.ro wrote:
Of course Opeth is not "prog". Opeth is progressive metal, which is not "prog" (like King Crimson, Gentle Giant, etc.). We should quit using "prog" when talking about modern progressive genres because old-timers don't know what we're talking about.
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Jim
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 29 2009 at 06:56 |
Oh, and here it is on youtube! The essence of Opeth. Although I had the words reversed. enjoy!
LanCaiHe wrote:
My God, I've listened to more Opeth than I ever care to again. I just listened to two more tunes. If anything at all they are Goth Metal. If I had the distasteful task of categorizing their music, that's what heading I would put them under. We had an add compaign here where I live years ago for a sticker to put on household cleaning products to protect young children from poisoning themselves. It was a green sad face sticker. It was called "Mr. Yuck." The theme music for the slogan was this simple tune built on a diminished chord and a tritone that said "Mr. Yuck is green, Mr. Yuck is Mean!" It sounded exactly like the two Opeth songs I just listened to. 
LanCaiHe wrote:
Yes, well, I went back to that band Opeth, and they are definitely not prog. There is just nothing special about it. I can't even stand waiting for them to start talking. Remind me of that movie by the Kids in the Hall "Brain Candy".....that metal band called "Grievo". LOL So boring. :-( |
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Jim
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: July 29 2009 at 06:56 |
Of course Opeth is not "prog". Opeth is progressive metal, which is not "prog" (like King Crimson, Gentle Giant, etc.). We should quit using "prog" when talking about modern progressive genres because old-timers don't know what we're talking about.
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LanCaiHe
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Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
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Posted: July 29 2009 at 06:53 |
My God, I've listened to more Opeth than I ever care to again. I just listened to two more tunes. If anything at all they are Goth Metal. If I had the distasteful task of categorizing their music, that's what heading I would put them under. We had an add compaign here where I live years ago for a sticker to put on household cleaning products to protect young children from poisoning themselves. It was a green sad face sticker. It was called "Mr. Yuck." The theme music for the slogan was this simple tune built on a diminished chord and a tritone that said "Mr. Yuck is green, Mr. Yuck is Mean!" It sounded exactly like the two Opeth songs I just listened to.
LanCaiHe wrote:
Yes, well, I went back to that band Opeth, and they are definitely not prog. There is just nothing special about it. I can't even stand waiting for them to start talking. Remind me of that movie by the Kids in the Hall "Brain Candy".....that metal band called "Grievo". LOL So boring. :-( |
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Jim
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 29 2009 at 06:25 |
No, that's not really what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say is that they are not PROG, period. I don't know what classification you might want to use, but I guess it depends on your definition of PROG. I use this definition of PROG. Prog of course is short for PROGRESSIVE....to PROGRESS right? PROG started in the late 60's and had it's big time in the early 70's. ELP, Genesis, Gentle Giant, PFM, King Crimson, Henry Cow, Yes, to name only a fraction. Does Opeth have anything in common with these bands soundwise, form wise, or otherwise???? I think the answer is a big NO. The only thing they have in common is possibly that they use drums and guitars, that's about it. There is nothing special about their music whatsoever, nothing "different" only tons of metalish distorted slow paced guitar arpeggios of uninteresting chords and growling uninspired vocals. They only thing they do well, it seems, is shake their hair around. So if you lay out your description of what Prog is to you, then I will lay out my requirements. Before you say it, no, I don't believe making something musically complex designates it as Prog, so please don't even go there, even though PROG is a step above most rock music technically speaking. 
>>>Wait. So it's not prog because... you think they're boring?<<<
Sorry, that just doesn't pass the smell test. If I like death metal, and I also like Regina Spektor, does that make Regina Spektor death metal? No. So why should it work the other way around?
The music itself is what determines the genre. Not the preferences of the listener.
[/QUOTE]
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Jim
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topofsm
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Joined: August 17 2008
Location: Arizona, USA
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:18 |
Nuke wrote:
topofsm wrote:
amjch70 wrote:
I think some people here will hate me, but I don’t think Porcupine Tree is a progressive band. Don’t get me wrong, PT is one of my favorite bands but I don’t think it’s a prog band. Just my opinion. |
You know, I tend to agree, though I haven't heard PT's earlier work, which I hear is quite psychedelic. Their latest outputs are clearly alternative rock IMO, with a decent amount of leaning towards prog. The thing is, I find recent PT output much like Nine Inch Nails, which as one of my favorite bands ever are also clearly not prog. However, had NIN emerged in the same scene as PT instead of the mainstream alternative rock/grunge one in the early nineties, I believe their credibility as prog would be just as much as Porcupine Tree |
I don't understand why people think genre classifcations are mutually exclusive. Just because porcupine tree have put an "alternative rock" element into their sound does not affect their strong prog influences and techniques. I mean, on Fear of a Blank Planet we have multiple instruments per person, Fripp soundscapes, alex lifeson solos, a thematic and musical concept, a nearly 18 minute long song, what else do you need to call it prog?
As for the whole pop thing, I find that when most prog band attempt to write a pop song, they fail miserably. I'm not sure why it is so hard for them, but there is something tricky about writing good pop music, and I think it relies a lot more on instinct than knowledge of songwriting techniques or instrumental skills. However, I don't mind when prog bands stray from prog, I just wish they left pop alone or else learned a bit more about how to write a good pop song. ELP did fine when they did fun songs like benny the bouncer without straying into pop music. |
I don't think the two genres are exclusive. The Mars Volta and The Dear Hunter are also quite clearly alternative rock (though not similar sounding) yet they are also quite prog. Porcupine Tree is not so much. While I do see all their progressive elements, I find that their alternative rock elements overshadow them. Not to say they're a bad band. And I would say Anesthetize is definitely a prog song, though I could name quite a few prog songs by NIN. 
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Tsevir Leirbag
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:16 |
Nuke wrote:
topofsm wrote:
amjch70 wrote:
I think some people here will hate me, but I don’t think Porcupine Tree is a progressive band. Don’t get me wrong, PT is one of my favorite bands but I don’t think it’s a prog band. Just my opinion. |
You know, I tend to agree, though I haven't heard PT's earlier work, which I hear is quite psychedelic. Their latest outputs are clearly alternative rock IMO, with a decent amount of leaning towards prog. The thing is, I find recent PT output much like Nine Inch Nails, which as one of my favorite bands ever are also clearly not prog. However, had NIN emerged in the same scene as PT instead of the mainstream alternative rock/grunge one in the early nineties, I believe their credibility as prog would be just as much as Porcupine Tree |
I don't understand why people think genre classifcations are mutually exclusive. Just because porcupine tree have put an "alternative rock" element into their sound does not affect their strong prog influences and techniques. I mean, on Fear of a Blank Planet we have multiple instruments per person, Fripp soundscapes, alex lifeson solos, a thematic and musical concept, a nearly 18 minute long song, what else do you need to call it prog?
As for the whole pop thing, I find that when most prog band attempt to write a pop song, they fail miserably. I'm not sure why it is so hard for them, but there is something tricky about writing good pop music, and I think it relies a lot more on instinct than knowledge of songwriting techniques or instrumental skills. However, I don't mind when prog bands stray from prog, I just wish they left pop alone or else learned a bit more about how to write a good pop song. ELP did fine when they did fun songs like benny the bouncer without straying into pop music. |
Agreed! Looks like there's someone who understands
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Les mains, les pieds balancés
Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers,
Un marin mort,
Il dormira
- Paul Éluard
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Nuke
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 25 2005
Location: United States
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 21:53 |
topofsm wrote:
amjch70 wrote:
I think some people here will hate me, but I don’t think Porcupine Tree is a progressive band. Don’t get me wrong, PT is one of my favorite bands but I don’t think it’s a prog band. Just my opinion. |
You know, I tend to agree, though I haven't heard PT's earlier work, which I hear is quite psychedelic. Their latest outputs are clearly alternative rock IMO, with a decent amount of leaning towards prog. The thing is, I find recent PT output much like Nine Inch Nails, which as one of my favorite bands ever are also clearly not prog. However, had NIN emerged in the same scene as PT instead of the mainstream alternative rock/grunge one in the early nineties, I believe their credibility as prog would be just as much as Porcupine Tree |
I don't understand why people think genre classifcations are mutually exclusive. Just because porcupine tree have put an "alternative rock" element into their sound does not affect their strong prog influences and techniques. I mean, on Fear of a Blank Planet we have multiple instruments per person, Fripp soundscapes, alex lifeson solos, a thematic and musical concept, a nearly 18 minute long song, what else do you need to call it prog? As for the whole pop thing, I find that when most prog band attempt to write a pop song, they fail miserably. I'm not sure why it is so hard for them, but there is something tricky about writing good pop music, and I think it relies a lot more on instinct than knowledge of songwriting techniques or instrumental skills. However, I don't mind when prog bands stray from prog, I just wish they left pop alone or else learned a bit more about how to write a good pop song. ELP did fine when they did fun songs like benny the bouncer without straying into pop music.
Edited by Nuke - July 28 2009 at 21:54
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Mr.Gryn
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 21:34 |
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Lot's of bands start out proggish then move over to mainstream after a radio hit or two. One example is Genesis.
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Scourge441
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 21:06 |
LanCaiHe wrote:
Yes, well, I went back to that band Opeth, and they are definitely not prog. There is just nothing special about it. I can't even stand waiting for them to start talking. Remind me of that movie by the Kids in the Hall "Brain Candy".....that metal band called "Grievo". LOL So boring. :-(
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Wait. So it's not prog because... you think they're boring? Sorry, that just doesn't pass the smell test. If I like death metal, and I also like Regina Spektor, does that make Regina Spektor death metal? No. So why should it work the other way around? The music itself is what determines the genre. Not the preferences of the listener.
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amjch70
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Joined: December 21 2008
Location: Costa Rica
Status: Offline
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 20:48 |
ProGR72 wrote:
topofsm wrote:
amjch70 wrote:
I think some people here will hate me, but I don’t think Porcupine Tree is a progressive band. Don’t get me wrong, PT is one of my favorite bands but I don’t think it’s a prog band. Just my opinion. |
You know, I tend to agree, though I haven't heard PT's earlier work, which I hear is quite psychedelic. Their latest outputs are clearly alternative rock IMO, with a decent amount of leaning towards prog. The thing is, I find recent PT output much like Nine Inch Nails, which as one of my favorite bands ever are also clearly not prog. However, had NIN emerged in the same scene as PT instead of the mainstream alternative rock/grunge one in the early nineties, I believe their credibility as prog would be just as much as Porcupine Tree |
Fear Of A Blank Planet is definitely prog. Anesthesize, someone? |
Anesthetize is definitely
a prog song, but I don’t think the rest of the album is
prog (for example Sleep together or Way out of here). They’re an excellent
band but I can’t say that one band is progressive just for one song.
Please don’t get
me wrong with this. I really
like PT 
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Twirling round with this familiar parable.
Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this
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LanCaiHe
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 20:46 |
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Yes, well, I went back to that band Opeth, and they are definitely not prog. There is just nothing special about it. I can't even stand waiting for them to start talking. Remind me of that movie by the Kids in the Hall "Brain Candy".....that metal band called "Grievo". LOL So boring. :-(
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Jim
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amjch70
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 20:41 |
topofsm wrote:
amjch70 wrote:
I think some people here will hate me, but I don’t think Porcupine Tree is a progressive band. Don’t get me wrong, PT is one of my favorite bands but I don’t think it’s a prog band. Just my opinion. |
You know, I tend to agree, though I haven't heard PT's earlier work, which I hear is quite psychedelic. Their latest outputs are clearly alternative rock IMO, with a decent amount of leaning towards prog. The thing is, I find recent PT output much like Nine Inch Nails, which as one of my favorite bands ever are also clearly not prog. However, had NIN emerged in the same scene as PT instead of the mainstream alternative rock/grunge one in the early nineties, I believe their credibility as prog would be just as much as Porcupine Tree |
We’re on the same
page with that. Both are great bands (The first record that I bought with my
own money was Broken by NIN) but they’re not prog. I also have the same issue
with Anathema. I love it but I don’t consider it a prog band.
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Twirling round with this familiar parable.
Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this
chance to be alive and breathing
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Tsevir Leirbag
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 03 2009
Location: Montréal
Status: Offline
Points: 8321
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Posted: July 28 2009 at 20:35 |
topofsm wrote:
amjch70 wrote:
I think some people here will hate me, but I don’t think Porcupine Tree is a progressive band. Don’t get me wrong, PT is one of my favorite bands but I don’t think it’s a prog band. Just my opinion. |
You know, I tend to agree, though I haven't heard PT's earlier work, which I hear is quite psychedelic. Their latest outputs are clearly alternative rock IMO, with a decent amount of leaning towards prog. The thing is, I find recent PT output much like Nine Inch Nails, which as one of my favorite bands ever are also clearly not prog. However, had NIN emerged in the same scene as PT instead of the mainstream alternative rock/grunge one in the early nineties, I believe their credibility as prog would be just as much as Porcupine Tree |
Fear Of A Blank Planet is definitely prog. Anesthesize, someone?
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Les mains, les pieds balancés
Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers,
Un marin mort,
Il dormira
- Paul Éluard
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Prog's not prog.
