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The.Crimson.King 
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Joined: March 29 2013
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 Posted: May 26 2016 at 23:15 |
 HosiannaMantra wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
HosiannaMantra wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
11) I think if Italian prog has it's own genre with RPI, French prog should have their own with RPF.
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I don't think that Lard Free, Ange, Pulsar, Heldon, Tai Phong, etc. are so tightly connected sonically to make a separate subgenre. And there is already Zeuhl, that started in France.  Also, RPI already includes many ELP & Genesis clones that don't have anything distinctively Italian apart from lyrics in Italian language, as well as Le Orme, Osanna and Area that don't have much in common with each other. As far as I can remember, it was originally called "Italian Symphonic Prog", but you could also derivate "Italian Eclectic Prog", "Italian Heavy Prog", and "Italian Jazz-Rock" from that, there are at least 2-3 quite original artists for each category. I'd say if any country needs it's own subgenre, it would be Spain (or Andalusia, for that matter). |
I do agree with your take on the various French bands...the only non-Zeuhl ones that I consider at all similar are the "chanson" bands like Ange & Mona Lisa....along with perhaps Versailles and Elohim. Could be those unique sounds are also illustrated in the way many of them are nicknamed with Brit prog bands (Ange = the French Genesis, Pulsar = the French Floyd, Atoll = the French Yes, Pinhaus = the French Fripp, etc). Honestly I'm just jealous that my fave non-English lyric prog gets treated like 2nd class citizens compared to the darn Italians who get their very own subgenre  |
Well, that nicknames are unfortunately present everywhere outside of USA or UK. And even there you can find "Poor man's Moody Blues". But, I've somehow missed the comparison between Ange and Genesis, actually they somehow sound more as Peter Hammill/VdGG's take on Jacques Brel to me, at least on their debut. While Pulsar had some awesome Mellotron parts a la Tony Banks. And Pinhas at least arranged for himself to sound more as Fripp in early Kraftwerk than Fripp in King Crimson. And I didn't mean to say that those bands are second class by saying that there's no need for separate subgenre, I just stated that RPI already contains bands as diverse as 90% of 70's British bands on this site. It's almost like having Camel, Family and Henry Cow under Rock Progressivo Ingleso. |
None of those nicknames really hold up when you start digging into the repertoire. I think they were just a convenient way of trying to get people outside the French prog scene to give them a try. I always figured the Ange=French Genesis thing was due to Christian's melodramatic acting out the songs a la PG. The 1st 2 Ange albums always remind me much more of VDGG than anything else too. As far as Pulsar=French Floyd, I think that one's so way off to be laughable. Other than the sort of spacy intro to Strands of the Future, I don't hear anything remotely similar. Oh well...if that's what it takes to get people to try out French prog, then whatever works
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HosiannaMantra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 14 2016
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 206
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 19:16 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
HosiannaMantra wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
11) I think if Italian prog has it's own genre with RPI, French prog should have their own with RPF.
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I don't think that Lard Free, Ange, Pulsar, Heldon, Tai Phong, etc. are so tightly connected sonically to make a separate subgenre. And there is already Zeuhl, that started in France. Also, RPI already includes many ELP & Genesis clones that don't have anything distinctively Italian apart from lyrics in Italian language, as well as Le Orme, Osanna and Area that don't have much in common with each other. As far as I can remember, it was originally called "Italian Symphonic Prog", but you could also derivate "Italian Eclectic Prog", "Italian Heavy Prog", and "Italian Jazz-Rock" from that, there are at least 2-3 quite original artists for each category. I'd say if any country needs it's own subgenre, it would be Spain (or Andalusia, for that matter). |
I do agree with your take on the various French bands...the only non-Zeuhl ones that I consider at all similar are the "chanson" bands like Ange & Mona Lisa....along with perhaps Versailles and Elohim. Could be those unique sounds are also illustrated in the way many of them are nicknamed with Brit prog bands (Ange = the French Genesis, Pulsar = the French Floyd, Atoll = the French Yes, Pinhaus = the French Fripp, etc). Honestly I'm just jealous that my fave non-English lyric prog gets treated like 2nd class citizens compared to the darn Italians who get their very own subgenre |
Well, that nicknames are unfortunately present everywhere outside of USA or UK. And even there you can find "Poor man's Moody Blues". But, I've somehow missed the comparison between Ange and Genesis, actually they somehow sound more as Peter Hammill/VdGG's take on Jacques Brel to me, at least on their debut. While Pulsar had some awesome Mellotron parts a la Tony Banks. And Pinhas at least arranged for himself to sound more as Fripp in early Kraftwerk than Fripp in King Crimson. And I didn't mean to say that those bands are second class by saying that there's no need for separate subgenre, I just stated that RPI already contains bands as diverse as 90% of 70's British bands on this site. It's almost like having Camel, Family and Henry Cow under Rock Progressivo Ingleso.
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Enchlore
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 22 2016
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 29
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 16:54 |
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Tony Banks had an angelical voice in "The Shepherd" (a song from a Genesis box set where he sang a small part) and he should have taken the lead vocal role instead of Phil Collins after Peter Gabriel left (although I like Phil's vocal work on A Trick of the Tail).
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If you like King Crimson, come over to the KC Discord server! https://discord.gg/6AYBxBD
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013
Location: WA
Status: Offline
Points: 4596
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 16:03 |
HosiannaMantra wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
11) I think if Italian prog has it's own genre with RPI, French prog should have their own with RPF.
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I don't think that Lard Free, Ange, Pulsar, Heldon, Tai Phong, etc. are so tightly connected sonically to make a separate subgenre. And there is already Zeuhl, that started in France. Also, RPI already includes many ELP & Genesis clones that don't have anything distinctively Italian apart from lyrics in Italian language, as well as Le Orme, Osanna and Area that don't have much in common with each other. As far as I can remember, it was originally called "Italian Symphonic Prog", but you could also derivate "Italian Eclectic Prog", "Italian Heavy Prog", and "Italian Jazz-Rock" from that, there are at least 2-3 quite original artists for each category. I'd say if any country needs it's own subgenre, it would be Spain (or Andalusia, for that matter). |
I do agree with your take on the various French bands...the only non-Zeuhl ones that I consider at all similar are the "chanson" bands like Ange & Mona Lisa....along with perhaps Versailles and Elohim. Could be those unique sounds are also illustrated in the way many of them are nicknamed with Brit prog bands (Ange = the French Genesis, Pulsar = the French Floyd, Atoll = the French Yes, Pinhaus = the French Fripp, etc). Honestly I'm just jealous that my fave non-English lyric prog gets treated like 2nd class citizens compared to the darn Italians who get their very own subgenre
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Magnum Vaeltaja
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 01 2015
Location: Out East
Status: Offline
Points: 6777
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 15:24 |
Smurph wrote:
Close to the Edge is pretty good but shouldn't even be in the top 50 prog albums in my opinion. Fragile is way better.I like Time and a Word. Yea. I said it. Watcher of the Skies makes me feel no emotion Van Der Graaf is better than Genesis tbh. PInk Floyd is meh. The best part of that band was their production values. Cathedral- Stained Glass Stories is an overlooked masterpiece Banco straying away from prog is the most disappointing result of pop/80's music for me Steven Wilson is not a genius I love Frank Zappa... but I hate his "satire" and "joke" songs. Magma is the best live band that might be able to exist Transatlantic is unbearable Marillion is way too cheesy for me and I can't get through any of their albums I still can't find any neo-prog bands that I like. The two I like most, Frost and Children of Nova, aren't really neo-prog. Ever since Heritage I've been impatiently waiting for Opeth to write an album that hits the sweet spot between something like Pale Communion, Blackwater Park, and Ghost Reveries. Instead of shifting into a new direction... I just wanted them to shift into all directions. I'm convinced it would be the best damn prog metal album ever.
I still hate Queensrhyche
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I couldn't agree more with these ones.
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when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8815
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 12:53 |
I love Nektar's Magic Is A Child and Down To Earth albums very much.
King Crimson's second album is better and a more together record than their debut. (still like the debut, tho)
I don't like Osanna's Palepoli record at all. I was disappointed.
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Smurph
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 11 2012
Location: Columbus&NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 3167
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 11:03 |
Close to the Edge is pretty good but shouldn't even be in the top 50 prog albums in my opinion. Fragile is way better. I like Time and a Word. Yea. I said it. Watcher of the Skies makes me feel no emotion Van Der Graaf is better than Genesis tbh. PInk Floyd is meh. The best part of that band was their production values. Cathedral- Stained Glass Stories is an overlooked masterpiece Banco straying away from prog is the most disappointing result of pop/80's music for me Steven Wilson is not a genius I love Frank Zappa... but I hate his "satire" and "joke" songs. Magma is the best live band that might be able to exist Transatlantic is unbearable Marillion is way too cheesy for me and I can't get through any of their albums I still can't find any neo-prog bands that I like. The two I like most, Frost and Children of Nova, aren't really neo-prog. Ever since Heritage I've been impatiently waiting for Opeth to write an album that hits the sweet spot between something like Pale Communion, Blackwater Park, and Ghost Reveries. Instead of shifting into a new direction... I just wanted them to shift into all directions. I'm convinced it would be the best damn prog metal album ever.
I still hate Queensrhyche
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15408
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 09:33 |
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^ I always wondered why Italy gets its own sub here. Not that i don't love the music, it's just that it doesn't say anything about the music. Area is avant-prog x jazz-fusion, PFM are clearly symphonic, Osanna is more in the heavy prog realms early on. Russian prog has unique features too, so IMHO we either include more countries to the list or get rid of the RPI category.
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HosiannaMantra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 14 2016
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 206
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 09:07 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
11) I think if Italian prog has it's own genre with RPI, French prog should have their own with RPF.
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I don't think that Lard Free, Ange, Pulsar, Heldon, Tai Phong, etc. are so tightly connected sonically to make a separate subgenre. And there is already Zeuhl, that started in France. Also, RPI already includes many ELP & Genesis clones that don't have anything distinctively Italian apart from lyrics in Italian language, as well as Le Orme, Osanna and Area that don't have much in common with each other. As far as I can remember, it was originally called "Italian Symphonic Prog", but you could also derivate "Italian Eclectic Prog", "Italian Heavy Prog", and "Italian Jazz-Rock" from that, there are at least 2-3 quite original artists for each category. I'd say if any country needs it's own subgenre, it would be Spain (or Andalusia, for that matter).
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King Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 16 2010
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 952
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 08:44 |
I think Dream Theater's When Dream and Day Unite is by far their best album. I think it is one of the best Prog albums of all time actually. I prefer the Rush Synthesizer era to the earlier or later period. I think the second best Yes album is 9025. (the best one is Close to the edge)
Phideaux has only released 5 Star albums
Snow is Spock Beard's weakest album
Edited by King Manuel - June 06 2016 at 12:46
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Online
Points: 17454
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 08:43 |
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It would have been interesting to hear what ELO would have been if that guy that left the band after the debut had remained (can't remember his name).
And you're right that a lot of people call GI and Pof8 "proggy" for sure, so maybe that is fairly common. But there are also lots of folks with your view too, who do not see them as a prog band at all.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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progaardvark
Special Collaborator
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Sea of Peas
Status: Offline
Points: 53434
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 07:36 |
Finnforest wrote:
progaardvark wrote:
11) I think Styx was a talented band, but they never even came close to making that one album that would have cemented their prog credentials |
--Actually I think this is a common opinion, not an "unusual" one. Styx never wanted to be a "prog" band...they were a rock band in the JC days and the Tommy days. They simply had a keyboardist with some artistic flair that he put to good use in giving the band that warm '70s extravagance some people call prog influence. |
Point taken. I honestly thought my opinion was rather uncommon after having been in a disagreement about how "proggy" The Grand Illusion was on another site some years ago. It's good to see I'm not alone on this opinion.  Finnforest wrote:
progaardvark wrote:
11) I think Styx was a talented band, but
they never even came close to making that one album that would have
cemented their prog credentials (I feel the same way about ELO). |
--That first ELO album is in a different league than what came after it.
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Indeed. I still think Lynne had the talent to come up with something amazing in a more "proggy" sort of way. If the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is true, I have to think there is an alternate universe where this actually happened.
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----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions
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Affek
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 03 2016
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 36
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Posted: May 26 2016 at 03:19 |
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I really like "A Passion Play". To be honest, I find it more enjoyable than "Aqualung", and "The Story of a Hare..." is, for me, quite a masterpiece. Also, never really cared for "Sgt. Pepper's..." and "Pet Sounds". I find Zappa's "Freak Out!" much more innovative and fresh. And, goin back to "Sgt. Pepper" - "Magical Mistery Tour" is way better as an album.
Edited by Affek - May 26 2016 at 03:43
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 Prog Rock (1969-1977)
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013
Location: WA
Status: Offline
Points: 4596
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Posted: May 25 2016 at 22:26 |
emigre80 wrote:
The.Crimson.King wrote:
I wish PA had an ignore feature  |
Or at the very least an emoticon that had its hands over its ear singing "LALALALA NOT LISTENING!" |
Maybe that should be my new sig
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12841
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Posted: May 25 2016 at 21:18 |
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I enjoy more Pink Floyd's live Jamming from their early period than King Crimson's jamming/improvisations.
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7872
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Posted: May 25 2016 at 19:29 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
<span style="line-height: 18.2px;">1) Crimso from '69 to '74 is my fave band of all time, but I could take or leave anything they did after.</span><div style="line-height: 18.2px;"><div style="line-height: 18.2px;">2) I wish the 80's version of Crimso had followed their initial plan and kept the band name Discipline instead. It seemed a much better description of their new musical direction and approach.<div style="line-height: 18.2px;"><span style="line-height: 18.2px;">3) I love Adrian Belew's guitar work but find his vocals/lyrics way too unnatural and forced. He comes off like a poor mans David Byrne by just trying too hard to be weird. This doesn't bug me with his solo albums as I really like Lone Rhino or even his vocals/lyrics with The Bears, but as far as fronting Crimso he totally turns me off...worst personnel decision Fripp ever made.</span><div style="line-height: 18.2px;"><span style="line-height: 18.2px;">4) I think Tony Levin is a fantastic stick player but only the 4th best bassist in Crimso history...second worst personnel decision Fripp ever made.</span><div style="line-height: 18.2px;"><span style="line-height: 18.2px;">5) I think June 1967's Sgt Peppers was the very first prog album.</span><div style="line-height: 18.2px;">6) I think Simon & Garfunkel should be in PA based on the 1968 Bookends album which is eclectic prog.<div style="line-height: 18.2px;">7) I think The Grateful Dead should be in PA as Psych/Space.<div style="line-height: 18.2px;">8) I think The Tubes should be in PA under crossover prog...though I'd be happy if they were even considered prog related.<div style="line-height: 18.2px;">9) I think Queen should be a "full member" in PA under eclectic not just prog related.<div style="line-height: 18.2px;"><span style="line-height: 18.2px;">10) I like the 1st Renaissance album with Jane Relf but absolutely cannot stand them later because of Annie Haslam. A Belew/Haslam fronted supergroup would be my prog nightmare.</span><div style="line-height: 18.2px;"><span style="line-height: 18.2px;">11) I think if Italian prog has it's own genre with RPI, French prog should have their own with RPF.</span><div style="line-height: 18.2px;"><span style="line-height: 18.2px;">12) I think including 100+ Miles Davis albums that have zero to do with prog or rock on a site that defines itself as "the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource" just because he had a few highly ranked prog fusion albums is a farce.</span><div style="line-height: 18.2px;"><span style="line-height: 18.2px;">13) I wish PA had an ignore feature </span> |
2, 11, 12, and 13 are just GOLD buddy. Well said. And now that we are on the subject of emoticons, bring back the [Headbanger] icon PA!! It's hard to express myself with out it. 
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Online
Points: 17454
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Posted: May 25 2016 at 14:28 |
progaardvark wrote:
11) I think Styx was a talented band, but they never even came close to making that one album that would have cemented their prog credentials
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--Actually I think this is a common opinion, not an "unusual" one. Styx never wanted to be a "prog" band...they were a rock band in the JC days and the Tommy days. They simply had a keyboardist with some artistic flair that he put to good use in giving the band that warm '70s extravagance some people call prog influence.
progaardvark wrote:
11) I think Styx was a talented band, but
they never even came close to making that one album that would have
cemented their prog credentials (I feel the same way about ELO). |
--That first ELO album is in a different league than what came after it.
Edited by Finnforest - May 25 2016 at 14:29
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 15378
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Posted: May 25 2016 at 14:10 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
A Belew/Haslam fronted supergroup would be my prog nightmare. |
I'd probably listen to them night and day though.
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: May 25 2016 at 11:28 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
I wish PA had an ignore feature |
Or at the very least an emoticon that had its hands over its ear singing "LALALALA NOT LISTENING!"
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013
Location: WA
Status: Offline
Points: 4596
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Posted: May 25 2016 at 10:52 |
1) Crimso from '69 to '74 is my fave band of all time, but I could take or leave anything they did after.2) I wish the 80's version of Crimso had followed their initial plan and kept the band name Discipline instead. It seemed a much better description of their new musical direction and approach. 3) I love Adrian Belew's guitar work but find his vocals/lyrics way too unnatural and forced. He comes off like a poor mans David Byrne by just trying too hard to be weird. This doesn't bug me with his solo albums as I really like Lone Rhino or even his vocals/lyrics with The Bears, but as far as fronting Crimso he totally turns me off...worst personnel decision Fripp ever made. 4) I think Tony Levin is a fantastic stick player but only the 4th best bassist in Crimso history...second worst personnel decision Fripp ever made. 5) I think June 1967's Sgt Peppers was the very first prog album. 6) I think Simon & Garfunkel should be in PA based on the 1968 Bookends album which is eclectic prog. 7) I think The Grateful Dead should be in PA as Psych/Space. 8) I think The Tubes should be in PA under crossover prog...though I'd be happy if they were even considered prog related. 9) I think Queen should be a "full member" in PA under eclectic not just prog related. 10) I like the 1st Renaissance album with Jane Relf but absolutely cannot stand them later because of Annie Haslam. A Belew/Haslam fronted supergroup would be my prog nightmare. 11) I think if Italian prog has it's own genre with RPI, French prog should have their own with RPF. 12) I think including 100+ Miles Davis albums that have zero to do with prog or rock on a site that defines itself as "the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource" just because he had a few highly ranked prog fusion albums is a farce. 13) I wish PA had an ignore feature
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Funny Ways: Your Unusual Prog Opinions
