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Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
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Points: 14693
Posted: December 24 2015 at 05:58
Tom's band is an ELP tribute, but a serious cut above most of the ilk - he's also a keyboard engineer (rebuilt the one above virtually from scratch using original parts) & good friend of Keith Emerson, who tends to 'borrow' keyboards from Tom on a regular basis:
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
Posted: December 23 2015 at 06:34
Thanks, Jim, I'll look him up. That's a 5U format synth, by the way. Modulars come in all sizes - Eurorack (which is what I'm making) is 3U, which is.... smaller. (duh)
I grew up a few miles south of Rochdale, by the way. ;-)
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
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Points: 14693
Posted: December 22 2015 at 11:27
Davesax1965 wrote:
It's about 40% complete but will be making basic noises by the New Year.
From a technical perspective, it will contain seven oscillators, five low frequency oscillators, three to four filters and two to three amplifiers. So it certainly knocks spots off any of the old Moog systems from the 1970's.
(Awaits technical furore from "Moog fans" who'll just cut and paste stats...... ;-) )
You really need to speak to Tom Szakaly from Noddy's Puncture, based in Rochdale:
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
Posted: December 22 2015 at 09:12
And, after some fun making my own ribbon cables - an internal bus system for the synth. Input is the green lead (and battery) on the lower left - the signal is routed internally around the synth (see sparkly lights)(it's Christmas) - no need for tons of patch cables.
Extend the ribbon cable through the back of the case and it can be used to feed the bus system of a second add on synth case. ;-)
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
Posted: December 12 2015 at 05:13
"Here's one I made earlier"
This is the sequencer section. Two Doepfer Dark Times bolted together and synchronised. The audio is from something else, using a Minibrute (see above).
The output from this goes into two synths. The synth audio output is then fed into an effects rack and from there into a mixer. From the mixer, it goes either to a mixing desk or directly to the PC.
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
Posted: December 10 2015 at 08:04
As a PS, if you don't want the complexity of a modular, a lot of analogue synth manufacturers produce "normalised" synths - the Arturia Minibrute being a good example. I have one of these, plus a Korg MS20. These go for virtually nothing - under £300 at the moment (special offer). Good start for those getting into analogue so you get used to what a VCO, VCF, ADSR, LFO are......
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
Posted: December 10 2015 at 03:47
"This may be the case because a modular synth is not really a very useful instrument when you are going to do anything a layperson would recognize as "music""
Tangerine Dream ? ELP ? ;-)
"It tells a lot that the historical development of synthesizers quickly moved away from the big modular systems to less flexible but more easily handled (in terms of both moving and playing the thing!) units such as the Minimoog, and on to polyphonic digital synthesizers. "
Well, the technology changed. As modular systems were (a) ruinously expensive and (b) very difficult to use, companies like ARP and Moog produced "normalised" synths such as the Minimoog and ARP2600. These suited the average "keyboard player in the street" but didn't have the flexibility of a modular - as well as the limitations. Poly digital synths are fine, but I find just playing presets.... soulless. Yes, you can mess around with presets, but most keyboard players... don't.
A lot of people seem to feel the same way, that something was lost when analogue synths were killed off by digital, hence the latest analogue revolution, which has been going on since the mid 1990s. That, I think, speaks a lot as well.
As for "a digital keyboard suits me as a prog rock keyboard player", well !! Great. I'm much more retro in my approach to prog rock. Horses for courses, of course - nothing is right or wrong, it's the end effect which counts. I wouldn't suggest everyone adopted analogue - even with modern add ons such as MIDI - or even thought about a modular synth, but. It suits some people. ;-)
Joined: May 23 2013
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Points: 2839
Posted: December 10 2015 at 03:46
I guess I'm a bit more conventional in my approach, which is sort of "Tangerine Dream o'clock". :-)
Bit of work last night - two Doefper Dark Time sequencers bolted together in a common case, synchronised together. This will allow me to run sequences together on two synths simultaneously.
This all goes into a mixer. The modular can output audio from various points in the system, so I've also created Mixing Desk Nightmare. If we do a live gig, the technicians will probably attempt to strangle us. ;-)
Joined: August 18 2013
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 373
Posted: December 09 2015 at 14:37
Davesax1965 wrote:
Hi Weeping Elf - ahh yes, "Experimental music".
90% of all people who buy a modular are not musicians.... they tend to make "experimental music". Draw your own conclusions. ;-)
Yep. This may be the case because a modular synth is not really a very useful instrument when you are going to do anything a layperson would recognize as "music", as opposed to "strange noises". It tells a lot that the historical development of synthesizers quickly moved away from the big modular systems to less flexible but more easily handled (in terms of both moving and playing the thing!) units such as the Minimoog, and on to polyphonic digital synthesizers. The modular synth geek friend I mentioned considers himself rather a "sound sculptor" than a "musician", and I think he is a quite typical case.
Myself, I sometimes feel tempted to acquire a modular synth, but then I realize how little use I could make of it in my band. The digital synth I have is much better suited to my needs as a progressive rock musician.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
Joined: August 18 2013
Location: Germany
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Points: 373
Posted: December 08 2015 at 10:48
I have to admit that I don't have any practical experience with modular synths. Hence, all my musing about them, including the (in)appropriateness of keyboards vs. ribbon controllers, are purely theoretical and not "blemished" by practice, though I have been talking about such things with a friend who does have a (self-built) modular synth - and that one indeed doesn't have a keyboard for the reasons I stated. That guy puts great importance in that he is a synthesizer player, not a keyboards player. However, he doesn't play progressive rock, nor any other kind of rock music, but experimental music that is hard to pigeonhole.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
Posted: December 08 2015 at 07:45
Yep, you can route in audio from a guitar BUT it'll sound awful. Line level voltage. The synth expects +5v to -5v. There ARE some converters available.
There are also fretless 6 string electric guitars, by the way. ;-)
With regards to "an analogue synth can be played with a ribbon controller", it certainly can, and it can also be played with a keyboard. Any non digital instrument is analogue, you could, say, tune a piano in non standard tuning. Piano, hmmm, keyboard. ;-) There are musical scales developed with more than the standard 12 notes. And keyboards to suit.
Matter of fact, you can do anything you want with an analogue synth, there are no rules, after all, just guidelines. I'm driven away from ribbon controllers as they tend to make instruments sound like theremins. It limits, rather than enhances, them. But there are times when you actually want to get that sound. I'd just rather not have it all the time. ;-)
You pays your money, you takes your choice, after all !
OR you can just turn the GLIDE / Portamento up and achieve much the same effect using a manual keyboard. Nearly. ;-)
One of the problems I have with music forums (and a lot of musicians) (mainly classically trained ones) is that they tend to assume that there is a "right way" to do things - or a hierarchy of what is good or bad, or what's better than something else. "Band A vs Band B - which is better ? " - this really gets me ... irritated. It's art. You can't measure or quantify it. Unless you're a professional musician or actually wrote the piece, all you have is an opinion. Well, everyone has an opinion. ;-) So I'll defend Weeping Elf's decision to use a ribbon controller on his (theoretical) synth and anyone elses' right to not use one.... as the mood suits.
But that's the great thing about modulars. If you can't look at one and see the creative possibilities......
Joined: August 18 2013
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Posted: December 05 2015 at 15:06
timbo wrote:
That may be true, Weeping Elf.
But at the time I made mine, I had over 10 years of experience of playing keyboards (primarily through organ lessons). Therefore for me, the keyboard was the most natural interface to choose. 30+ years later, that is still true, and the keyboard is still the best interface for me.
I am a keyboards player myself, and I would thus have a much easier time playing a modular synth with a keyboard than with a ribbon controller. Yet, I feel that adding a keyboard to a modular synth adds a limitation to the instrument, like adding frets to a violin but worse. But as you say, that is a limitation that pervades most western music, and when you are going to play together with guitars, for instance, the pitches the keyboards limit you to are those you will want to use anyway.
And of course, this is not really an "either/or" choice. You can equip your modular synth with both, and use whatever seems more convenient to you at the moment.
In fact I would argue, the best interface is the one that you can use most effectively to make music. If that is a ribbon interface, then great. If it's a keyboard, then use that. Most western music is made up of discrete tones anyway, so a ribbon interface might be fine for avant garde music, but for music conforming to traditional scales and tones, it is not.
True. Most music these days (including most prog rock) is in 12-tet, and for that a keyboard is indeed appropriate.
Even most instruments with continuous pitch, such as the guitar, have been adapted to play discrete tones (e.g. by adding frets) to fit into that paradigm. I am a very weak guitar player, so the most effective interface for me is the keyboard regardless of the means of sound production (doesn't stop me trying to play guitar though).
The best interface is the one the player is able to use to make the best music (whatever your definition of "best" is).
Sure.
EDIT: There is of course yet another way of playing a modular synth: route in an audio signal from an external source, such as a guitar. There is certainly a lot a modular synth can do to the sound of an electric guitar!
Edited by WeepingElf - December 07 2015 at 13:57
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Posted: December 04 2015 at 11:04
About £800 / $1200, I think. You can't quite see it but there's a little ring controller under the keyboard, a la Ondes Martinot.
Doepfer and Synthesizers.com do a range of equally expensive CV keyboards. Or. You can get a bog standard MIDI keyboard and use a MIDI to CV interface for a hell of a lot less money.
Joined: May 23 2013
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Posted: December 04 2015 at 09:35
Horses for courses, folks.
Incidentally, ribbon controllers ARE available for modulars. Nothing is really correct. You can get a Ondes Martinot style controller from Analogue Solutions (for a small fortune) - MIDI keyboard for me.
If you want weird effects, an analogue will serve your needs as you can always produce them some way. But there are no rights and wrongs, merely output. :-)
But at the time I made mine, I had over 10 years of experience of playing keyboards (primarily through organ lessons). Therefore for me, the keyboard was the most natural interface to choose. 30+ years later, that is still true, and the keyboard is still the best interface for me.
In fact I would argue, the best interface is the one that you can use most effectively to make music. If that is a ribbon interface, then great. If it's a keyboard, then use that. Most western music is made up of discrete tones anyway, so a ribbon interface might be fine for avant garde music, but for music conforming to traditional scales and tones, it is not.
Even most instruments with continuous pitch, such as the guitar, have been adapted to play discrete tones (e.g. by adding frets) to fit into that paradigm. I am a very weak guitar player, so the most effective interface for me is the keyboard regardless of the means of sound production (doesn't stop me trying to play guitar though).
The best interface is the one the player is able to use to make the best music (whatever your definition of "best" is).
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Davesax1965 wrote:
