Punk: A Logical Extension of Prog?

I suspect the difficulty lies in the perception that music development within all genres of music is linear because in some of the more simplistic subgenres it is. Prog and Post Punk are not singular styles of music, they are parallel developments of differing styles. For example we regard Krautrock as being under the umbrella terminology of Progressive Rock, yet it bears no direct relationship with Prog Rock that came out of the UK, USA, Italy or Holland, it follows a parallel path and encompasses a sympathetic aesthetic. we can make the same observations about The Canterbury Scene and Zeuhl. New Wave suffers a similar parallelism - Neo Prog was Prog with a New Wave influence (a more accurate terminology would perhaps have been New Wave of British Progressive Rock, but the Neo Prog tag was thrown at it in the late 80s and the name stuck), to date this is the only nod to New Wave that has been acknowledged as being part of Progressive Rock umbrella.

Edited by Dean - March 08 2015 at 14:56

^I agree with you except on this one critical point. No Post Punk artist would have been caught dead if they even hinted that their music was Prog or Prog inspired. There seems to be some other factor involved then just avoiding sounding like an old music trend. Being labeled Post Punk, however, was quite alright. Even for the more arty and experimental artists who requested not to be labeled at all, the Post Punk moniker seemed to cause them little discomfort.

Edited by SteveG - March 08 2015 at 14:23

Svetonio wrote: Just to illustrate how the punk movement was big in my country and how much Punk was popular in former Yugoslavia, here's a feature film Dečko koji Obećava ("The Promising Boy") about the punk movement in former Yugoslavia that was a big hit in cinemas across the country in 1981: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZddmkTQsZaE (English subtitles, drama genre). The members of Belgrade's post-punk band Šarlo Akrobata - already in Prog Archives as an "avant-prog" act what always make me laugh - are also starring in this film. Released in 1981, it was one of the first feature films with the theme of Punk ever filmed. Not that much feature 'punk-movies' was filmed before Yugoslav "The Promising Boy", as e.g. British film Jubilee with Adam Ant from 1977, Rock'n'Roll Highschool, an American comedy with The Ramones from 1979, Dutch movie Cha Cha with Lene Lovich and Nina Hagen from 1979 and the British film Breaking Glass  with Hazel O'Connor from 1980. In February 1981, one of the major record companies in former Yugoslavia, Jugoton, released a punk / post-punk compilation album titled Paket Aranžman ("Package Deal") with the songs of the most popular Yugoslav punk / post-punk bands; that album sold tremendously well to this day, as it reached a cult status.   Both mentioned film and the compilation were a final "victory" of Punk aesthetics here. As a music genre, Punk in my country represented a complete break with the Progressive rock because young bands were completely turned into punk and (or) post-punk. Progressive rock in my country has not yet recovered from Punk hysteria then gripped the former Yugoslavia in late 70s / early 80s.    A few days ago, a former Yugoslav punk rocker (who also starring with his band in "The Promising Boy" the movie), Vlada Divljan from "Idoli" ("Idols") died by cancer at 57. As a young man he was one of the pioneers of the punk movement here, and the government is seriously considering to declare a day of mourning in the capital of Serbia. That's how big youth movement it was here.

ExittheLemming wrote: SteveG wrote: For something that's deemed to be so small, Punk's lasting impact on music cannot be underestimated. There would be no New Wave movement without it and no Grudge movement as a response to New Wave. And let's not forget the entire arty Post Punk movement. Prog simply has not have had that impact on Pop music, regardless of how big it was, unless we look in terms of Punk being a reaction to Prog, which would place Prog right back into the negative light that it was cast into in the middle to later seventies. Have to agree with most of this but as for the reasons, things get a tad blurry hereabouts. As Dean has correctly pointed out already, Punk's musical legacy was rudimentary and meager at best, until such time as we reached circa '79 and the so-called Post Punk artists emerged. I guess that what Punk bequeathed to music were the sorts of values I personally still hold dear e.g. discipline, brevity, economy, focus, structure etc in stark contrast to the spacey improvs and lengthy noodly meanderings that afflict some of the worst Prog. It also probably goes without saying that Punk was accessible so that anyone with a very basic set of chops and a cheap guitar could join a band with like minded souls without being subjected to ridicule or having to attend a conservatoire beforehand. Similarly, the subject matter was considerably more pragmatic, prosaic and political (at least in the UK) than the sort of conceptual tangents so beloved of Sinfield, Anderson, Gabriel, Lake et al. Prog was effectively overripe and rotting by circa 1974/75 and had lost much of its customer base. I'm still unsure what deserting Prog fans started to listen to instead between then and the end of the decade?

Sorry, old chap. I was baking a soufflé for dinner guests while listening to X  by Klaus Schultz, which I realize now is not conducive to proper posts by yours truly.

Yep, what a spread

ExittheLemming wrote: I'm still unsure what deserting Prog fans started to listen to instead between then and the end of the decade?

Edited by Dean - March 08 2015 at 04:35

This discussion doesn't need a soundtrack.

SteveG wrote: ^Wakeman's capes were part of the Yes concert experience!   (...)

Of course it was a part of Yes experience! Same with e.g. Mr Daltrey's Tarzan-shirt at The Who gigs in the middle 70s. All in good time

Punk got co-opted fairly quickly by the music industry and was turned into sterile mush within a few years. The fashionably unfashionable look and attitude remained, but the music went to hell.  It seems the record companies' subversion of musical trends was a phenomena that picked up steam in the late 70s. Maybe they had perfected it by then. It was evident, of course, in the 60s (American Monkee mop-tops aping the Brit Beatles, for instance), but rock music was more volatile in the 60s and early 70s, and less subject to cookie-cutter assembly lines vomiting out either MTV synth players with bad hair and an emo tendency to whine, or big-haired, bandana-wearing pseudo-tough guitarists with band names that reflected vermin, lewd body parts or parasitic insects.

Edited by The Dark Elf - March 07 2015 at 20:31

ExittheLemming wrote: SteveG wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Tom Verlaine felt Television were not part of any so-called punk movement. "We felt outside of that," he says. "I don't think any of those bands (Patti Smith, Blondie, Talking Heads, Voidoids) were punk and everybody knows they're not punk so it's kind of a dead issue. Nobody calls those bands punk, outside of maybe the Ramones." I'm aware of the distinctions between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law, Ian. Simply put, Television has to be categorized. So what category would you place them in? I wasn't being pedantic.  If they have to be categorized, Television are a rock band who stripped away a lot of the habitual blues vocabulary from their music which gave it a somewhat unique sound for the time.  No more, no less.

Unfortunately Ian, all music has to be categorized. I'm not being condescending, it's the curse that we live with. I'll use the numerous subgenres in PA as an example.