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Mr ProgFreak 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
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 Posted: February 28 2010 at 12:20 |
That's quite a straw man argument, and I think you know.  At least with digital data we *can* make backups. Back in the 90s when my entire vinyl collection was destroyed by a leaking pipe in the cellar, I certainly would have appreciated a backup.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 11:33 |
 Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ Isn't music something to be heard rather than held in your hand? Maybe this insistence on a tangible medium rather comes from the fact that people got used to things being like that in the last 50+ years, than from it being necessary in order to value the actual music.
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I guess you're right. Let's all just download music to hard drives, iPods and usb cards.
Then, ten years down the road, when those devises and all their backups fail, we'll just buy those digital downloads all over again! Oh, and not to mention we'll have to buy new hard drives, iPods, usb drives several times over, and back all of our music up all over again.
Yeah . . . the future is really going to be convenient, huh?
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 11:17 |
^ I never heard anyone complaining about music in itself not being the same anymore, as if its essence was corrupted. I only heard people saying that the experience of listening to music is a much poorer one without the rituals and habits related to their discs/tapes/cassettes. Of course I've also heard people complaining about the sound quality of digital media but that doesn't count
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Mr ProgFreak
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Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 10:12 |
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 05:00 |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 04:59 |
^ your analogy also works in favor of my argument ... 
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 04:47 |
^ Associating something impalpable with a physical object isn't necessarily a shallow thing, a temporary fashion. Associating music with a physical support might stay longer than anyone would expect - remember when people started making books (the rolled ones, and, much later, the codex)? Many wise people complained that true poetry and knowledge will be lost by "freezing" them in the fashionable but "dead" support of the book, but two and a half thousands years have passed and books are still here to stay. 
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 04:24 |
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^ Isn't music something to be heard rather than held in your hand? Maybe this insistence on a tangible medium rather comes from the fact that people got used to things being like that in the last 50+ years, than from it being necessary in order to value the actual music.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 03:22 |
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^ People still like something they can hold. Bottom line. As long as they want that, the companies will still make them available.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 5195
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 03:07 |
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The difference between Blu-Ray video and DVD video is plain to see for anyone who has anywhere near 100% visual acuity (given proper encodings in 720p or 1080p and proper playback equipment). The difference between CD, SACD and even MP3 (given proper encodings) is much less obvious, and even that is an euphemism, since there are numerous studies which show that even under ideal conditions (high end playback equipment, trained/experienced/professional listeners) people can't tell the sources apart.
IMO this is what is killing CD. Not so much that there aren't any better disc formats available, but that MP3 is perfectly sufficient and delivers the same content without so much hassle, and at a lower price.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 27 2010 at 20:53 |
You're repeating points I've already made pretty good arguments for in my last post.
I gave Blu-Ray as an example because it is the same situation from a marketing point of view. I don't really care if the difference between Blu-Ray and DVD is more obvious that the difference between SACD and CD. That wasn't my point at all. My was simple: if people actually gave a damn, SACD would have overtaken CD ages ago, just like Blu-Ray is currently doing with DVD.
The only reason the guys behind Blu-Ray technology have bothered to research ways of making the technology more affordable to produce is because they know they will make a profit. You say once the same happens with SACD, it will really take off, but as I just explained to you, that WON'T happen with SACD unless people support it already. They don't. So why would Sony and Phillips even bother researching more ways of affordably pushing SACD into the market, when Sony is already having success with Blu-Ray? It doesn't make sense.
I love how you completely ignored the part of my post where I called you out on your contradiction, by the way. |
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
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Points: 7826
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Posted: February 27 2010 at 20:45 |
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Blu-ray is a completely different situation. The difference between DVD and blu-ray is HUGE, whereas the difference between CD and SACD is more subtle.
When you add on the fact that SACD is significantly more expensive than CD, you're right - people will not be jumping out of their socks to invest in these. BUT when the technology becomes easier to produce, I would imagine that it will overrun the CD market. Not entirely (just like people still use DVD today), but I think it will become a major way of distributing music eventually.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 27 2010 at 17:29 |
J-Man wrote:
I'm not saying that CD will completely "go away" |
Really? 'Cause I could have sworn you said this just moments ago:
J-Man wrote:
I honestly think that the CD will be gone by 2019.
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J-Man wrote:
I realize that SACD's have been around for 10 years, but they are so expensive right now that people won't buy them. Once a more efficient way to make SACD is created, I'm sure it will be more widely distributed than it is right now.
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Blu-Ray isn't even five years old yet, and it's already becoming more and more affordable. Why? Because people actually care enough to buy it. Cost efficiency comes as a result of customer support, not the other way around. If SACD technology were ever going to gain an edge over standard CD, I would have have expected it to happen by now.
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
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Points: 4373
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Posted: February 27 2010 at 17:18 |
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They still make SACD? I remember seeing come Can remasters being sold for cheap because nobody was buying into the format.
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
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Points: 7826
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Posted: February 27 2010 at 17:12 |
JLocke wrote:
J-Man wrote:
JLocke wrote:
^ Jeff, what makes you think a virtually unknown format such as SACD will ever gain an edge over CD? |
It's virtually unknown.... as of right now. 
Once the technology becomes less expensive to make, I'm confident that it will eventually get the edge over the CD. It's not going to happen over night (I think it should take at least 10 years), but the sound quality on SACD's is a hell of a lot better than on CD's, and I think because of that it will eventually edge the CD.
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^ Yeah, but if CD is going the way of the dodo like you seem to think, why would people be game for yet another version of the very think they just 'moved on' from? 
Now, bear in mind, I'm looking at this situation through the current general opinion. Me personally not believing at all that physical media is dying, can see a more possible way of SACD of HDCD type stuff catching on one day.
However, that technology is already over a decade old. I just don't see how that particular case can be made. Maybe a higher-dynamic physical music form WILL come along one day that blows CD away, but as it stands right now nobody cares about SACD except for the most die-hard of audiophiles. |
I'm not saying that CD will completely "go away", I just predict that SACD will eventually sell more than CD's. The same thing happened with vinyl. Many people still use it and buy it, but CD's have the edge over it. I realize that SACD's have been around for 10 years, but they are so expensive right now that people won't buy them. Once a more efficient way to make SACD is created, I'm sure it will be more widely distributed than it is right now. I don't think CD will ever completely go away, but I think that within the next 10 years more advanced forms of technology will outsell the CD.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17966
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Posted: February 27 2010 at 17:11 |
I use all forms of media...I'm an old vinyl freak, even have a few 8tracks laying around. I embrace digital media, love mp3 because they are easily played (Zune, iPod, car systems, home, computers....).
With speakers that can handle the digital format the sound is amazing thru a home system. I remember back in the 70's it was all about watts, who had the receiver with the most watts output...Now it is more about 5.1 and 7.1 digital processing. Audio receiver pricing is pretty cheap, speaker pricing has held to the higher side...makes sense.
I doubt the CD goes away, as long as there are buyers it will remain....at least thru 2012 
I download a lot....Subscription music service is gonna get more popular, just like movie subscription has pushed out Hollywood Video. If you explore music and all genres as much as I do, I'd have to be a multi-millionaire to buy all the CD's I listen to. I pefer the subscription format, then if I like something I will buy a hardcopy or just buy the rented music and burn to a CD.
I do agree with the advent of CD's from vinyl, the artwork is what is lost, the liner notes, the big double album covers and so on....I do miss that.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 27 2010 at 15:37 |
J-Man wrote:
JLocke wrote:
^ Jeff, what makes you think a virtually unknown format such as SACD will ever gain an edge over CD? |
It's virtually unknown.... as of right now.
Once the technology becomes less expensive to make, I'm confident that it will eventually get the edge over the CD. It's not going to happen over night (I think it should take at least 10 years), but the sound quality on SACD's is a hell of a lot better than on CD's, and I think because of that it will eventually edge the CD.
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^ Yeah, but if CD is going the way of the dodo like you seem to think, why would people be game for yet another version of the very think they just 'moved on' from?
Now, bear in mind, I'm looking at this situation through the current general opinion. Me personally not believing at all that physical media is dying, can see a more possible way of SACD of HDCD type stuff catching on one day.
However, that technology is already over a decade old. I just don't see how that particular case can be made. Maybe a higher-dynamic physical music form WILL come along one day that blows CD away, but as it stands right now nobody cares about SACD except for the most die-hard of audiophiles.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 27 2010 at 15:34 |
CPicard wrote:
We can say that.
In a manner, this discussion makes me think of some pronostics of the past: it had been said that radio was about to kill the book and the newspapers; it had been said that cinema was about to kill radio, theater and books; it had been said that TV was about to kill cinema, books and radio...
Now, we hear: "Internet is killing the press, the TV and the radio" or "MP3 will kill CD". I wonder why people can't accept the idea of a possible future in which music would be available in every format: CD, LP, MP3, DVD or even K7...
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That's exactly my feeling. I find it hard to believe that a future exists in which only one format of entertainment is accepted.
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: February 27 2010 at 15:11 |
JLocke wrote:
^ Jeff, what makes you think a virtually unknown format such as SACD will ever gain an edge over CD? |
It's virtually unknown.... as of right now. Once the technology becomes less expensive to make, I'm confident that it will eventually get the edge over the CD. It's not going to happen over night (I think it should take at least 10 years), but the sound quality on SACD's is a hell of a lot better than on CD's, and I think because of that it will eventually edge the CD.
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: February 27 2010 at 14:12 |
We can say that. In a manner, this discussion makes me think of some pronostics of the past: it had been said that radio was about to kill the book and the newspapers; it had been said that cinema was about to kill radio, theater and books; it had been said that TV was about to kill cinema, books and radio... Now, we hear: "Internet is killing the press, the TV and the radio" or "MP3 will kill CD". I wonder why people can't accept the idea of a possible future in which music would be available in every format: CD, LP, MP3, DVD or even K7...
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