Will piracy kill off prog rock ?

moshkito wrote: Dean wrote: It is clear from Pedro's emotional response to my posts that he, and perhaps others, think I am defending the record labels here. I am not. I merely described the reality and made no judgement on whether that is right or wrong or good or bad. It is also clear that he, and perhaps others, finds the idea of making records being a business distasteful and somehow cheapens the art, but that's another topic of conversation and not what we are discussing here. Incorrect. I'm not anti-business any more than I am anti-idiocy!

That's good to know.

moshkito wrote: However, too many of us "artistes", do not want to have the patience necessary to deal with an accountant, to learn something simple about business that will get you going fairly well. In America, you CAN do this as a business and take your best shots at it. I don't know that the same "legal/commercial/tax-design" is a satisfactory idea for most people.

I do know and it isn't. Most people running a business tend to have a good understanding of legal, commercial and tax, there is only one place where people who don't can run a business, and that's into the ground.

moshkito wrote: One of the issues in "business", and I ran two restaurants, is that there is ALWAYS a small percentage that you are going to lose ... as the lettuce did not move fast enough, and you had to throw away half a case, and there goes the money. Likewise in a record business, there is a percentage that doesn't move, or in our example, was "stolen". Considering that we did not exactly "spend" money to create that stolen product, all you are accounting is INVISIBLE MONEY that you might have made, NOT LOST! It's money that you could have gained.

That is not an example of stolen product. 

What you are talking about is called WASTE, this isn't INVISIBLE MONEY, and you are right, it is NOT LOST, it is THROWN AWAY. In all businesses a degree of WASTE is UNAVOIDABLE but EXCESSIVE WASTE is NOT - that's called BAD MANAGEMENT, and in the main it is INEXCUSABLE and BAD BUSINESS.

(hey, all this SHOUTING is FUN, but that's enough, back to normal...)

All industries have waste, it is a consequence of manufacturing that is factored in to the the cost of production and is accounted for in the retail price. Wasted food is a consequence of running a restaurant, the cost of that is factored into the price customers are charged for food, miss-planning and overestimating affects how much waste there will be, and no restaurants owner can predict to 100% accuracy how much of each menu item they will sell during any service, but experience will tell them which will sell more than others. In the UK the biggest cause of waste in restaurants is chefs putting too much food on the plate and our portions are already smaller than those served up in US restaurants. 

Personally, I would not have thought that lettuce, being a salad item and/or unnecessary garnish, wouldn't be something you would overestimate by any great amount, I dunno, you're the expert, but I seldom throw much lettuce away at home: that which isn't used (practically) everyday in my lunch box is used up cooked with scallions and peas in a chicken or vegetable stock in a dish called braised peas... if you are being cheffy it is called Petits Pois à La Française - much nicer than throwing half a case of lettuce in the bin... but I guess you know all that.

No, none of that is stolen product. Waste in the record industry is pressing more CDs than you sell. In the days of vinyl those returned albums were melted down to make new albums, these days those CDs are either sold off at discounted prices (remainders) or sent to land-fill sites where they will remain buried underground for eternity. Those were never stolen, nor are they lost sales. It is not money they could have gained, it's money they wasted making CDs they did not sell.

moshkito wrote: Just so you know, some of the biggest sellers of bootlegs and other illegal stuff, happened to be the same record executives, trying to buy off radio folks and this was huge enough in Los Angeles as to set off a massive payola thing, that is still not quite resolved, but showed how the place has changed, not to mention radio.

Okay... you are aware we're not talking about bootlegs here aren't you?

moshkito wrote: What is weird, is that I don't hear Bob Dylan complaining, or the Grateful Dead, and they were the 2 highest numbers of bootlegs out there. And they will be remembered. This has helped me re-think the steal thing, and the reason why I have no respect for Metallica or a handful of bands, that want the money and don't care about anything else ... in other words, they are merely defending their lifestyle! NOT YOURS, OR MINE, btw ... because the law is designed to protect them!

Okay... you are aware we're not talking about bootlegs here aren't you? 

And you do know that bootlegs are illegal don't you?

Metallica were not fighting bootlegging when the took on Napster, they were fighting the illegal copying of their studio albums. Sure they cared about the money, when your income is dependant upon the goods you legitimately sell then people selling verbatim copies of those goods is directly affecting your income, then you are going to care about the money. 

And let's get one thing absolutely straight here - whether Metallica defend their lifestyle or not, it has abso-f**king-lutely nothing to do with your lifestyle or mine - zip, nadda, nix - nothing what so ever.

moshkito wrote: I'm not a great fan of the piracy side of things. Because that is nasty and un-cool.

So... 

moshkito wrote: We need the piracy.

 

What the bloody-f*ck was that about?

moshkito wrote: But the bootleg side, FOR ME, is not about "piracy", and I think this is where I made the error, in your discussion. Piracy, in your desctiption, is stealing the CD, relabeling it and selling it. Yes, I would castrate that fudger as fast as you would!

Ah, right... an error. I see.

moshkito wrote: But the bootlegs, is another story. It's like night and day with the bootlegs, and what you learn from the artist is far more exciting and beautiful in the whole context of the artistry involved, than otherwise. This was the case of the "big ones" with the bootlegs. They were magnificently different, and you learned something about the persons behind it. You can not see that in the LP's at all! The 15 different versions of "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" are magnificent. So are the 15 different versions of "Echoes". So are the 15 different versions of "Atom Heart Mother". You might say they were bored, but you and I are the listeners, and we experience different things when hearing something different. This is the benefit of the artistry in the bootleg area.

Okay... so you are not aware we're not talking about bootlegs.. 

And you do know that bootlegs are illegal right?

And you do know that we do not discuss illegal bootlegs on this site, don't you?

5. No Illegal activities. Posts and threads promoting or facilitating file swapping, drug abuse, or any other forum of illegal activity are not permitted. Any such posts will be deleted, and the member warned.

I'd have thought that it would have moved up the chart, but no, it's been stuck at #5 for almost ten years now, complete with an uncorrected spelling mistake. hey-ho

moshkito wrote: But the whole "piracy" thing, is not something that I will stand by or accept. And whatever you do, please at least understand this about me. I'm about the artistry, not the piracy ... even though I have had a screenplay stolen, and will never be able to get another one sold because mine are now protected at a couple of national libraries. And this intimidates a group of business folks, that are looking to make money, and don't really give a darn about your work.

Stealing is stealing. Doesn't matter who commits the crime, it's still a crime. If the Label steals from the Artist it's a crime, if the "fans" steal from the Label and/or Artist, it's a crime.

moshkito wrote: Btw, I DID PRODUCE a record album, for Guy Guden. The total cost for 1000 copies was $2800 dollars (sorry, don't remember the exact figure), or about $2.80 per album. This was in 1978, by the way. That included the hard cover and the cellophane and Guy's design and such. It did not include the "master" which the folks at the place did for a nominal small fee, since their money was obviously in the number of LP's done. I did not lose on that deal and we got the money back for it, and the rest was saved. It featured Guy's comedy. Just like the discussion here, the album was fine but Guy's work on the air in his comedy was far superior to the album, even if he was hoping to use it as a lead in to his acting ability, which was exceptional and quite disciplined on the stage.

You do know that he wasn't A REAL PIRATE don't you, that patch and hopping around on one leg going "Arrrh" all the time was just an act. And you are aware, I assume, that Space Pirate Radio wasn't a real pirate radio station but just a night-time radio show transmitted legally during the dead hours. See, real pirate radio steals from the Artist, they play the records without paying performance royalties, and Gus the Clown and KTYD, being legitimate and not at all Pirates, paid their performance royalties to ASCAP like good little boys, because if they didn't those nasty men in suits would have closed them down wouldn't they? Yes they would.

moshkito wrote: All in all, just don't confuse what I posted. I do not support piracy, and will not even REVIEW an album that I do not have the CD of! Why? ... I LOVE THE MUSIC I HAVE ... you know and understand that, and I do not wish to corrupt that love and appreciation. that appreciation was acquired from a long time of buying a lot of LP's, imports, all the way to 1985 and 1990, because it was the only blood that fed this vampire. Piracy, for me, was always theft, as it still is.

So... 

moshkito wrote: We need the piracy.

 

What the bloody-f*ck was that about?

moshkito wrote: But I have seen theft on my own work. But waiting for a nickel to arrive in my mail tomorrow is not something that I can live with or from. Besides that, I'm an "enfant terrible" and like many of us here, extremely independent, but I will tell you, that if someone robs me, go ahead, but that person's kharmic disposition is going to take a severe hit, and hopefully it won't destroy their life or family!

Dean wrote: It is clear from Pedro's emotional response to my posts that he, and perhaps others, think I am defending the record labels here. I am not. I merely described the reality and made no judgement on whether that is right or wrong or good or bad. It is also clear that he, and perhaps others, finds the idea of making records being a business distasteful and somehow cheapens the art, but that's another topic of conversation and not what we are discussing here.

Incorrect.

I'm not anti-business any more than I am anti-idiocy!

However, too many of us "artistes", do not want to have the patience necessary to deal with an accountant, to learn something simple about business that will get you going fairly well. In America, you CAN do this as a business and take your best shots at it. I don't know that the same "legal/commercial/tax-design" is a satisfactory idea for most people.

One of the issues in "business", and I ran two restaurants, is that there is ALWAYS a small percentage that you are going to lose ... as the lettuce did not move fast enough, and you had to throw away half a case, and there goes the money. Likewise in a record business, there is a percentage that doesn't move, or in our example, was "stolen". Considering that we did not exactly "spend" money to create that stolen product, all you are accounting is INVISIBLE MONEY that you might have made, NOT LOST! It's money that you could have gained.

Just so you know, some of the biggest sellers of bootlegs and other illegal stuff, happened to be the same record executives, trying to buy off radio folks and this was huge enough in Los Angeles as to set off a massive payola thing, that is still not quite resolved, but showed how the place has changed, not to mention radio.

What is weird, is that I don't hear Bob Dylan complaining, or the Grateful Dead, and they were the 2 highest numbers of bootlegs out there. And they will be remembered. This has helped me re-think the steal thing, and the reason why I have no respect for Metallica or a handful of bands, that want the money and don't care about anything else ... in other words, they are merely defending their lifestyle! NOT YOURS, OR MINE, btw ... because the law is designed to protect them!

I'm not a great fan of the piracy side of things. Because that is nasty and un-cool. But the bootleg side, FOR ME, is not about "piracy", and I think this is where I made the error, in your discussion. Piracy, in your desctiption, is stealing the CD, relabeling it and selling it. Yes, I would castrate that fudger as fast as you would! But the bootlegs, is another story. It's like night and day with the bootlegs, and what you learn from the artist is far more exciting and beautiful in the whole context of the artistry involved, than otherwise. This was the case of the "big ones" with the bootlegs. They were magnificently different, and you learned something about the persons behind it. You can not see that in the LP's at all! The 15 different versions of "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" are magnificent. So are the 15 different versions of "Echoes". So are the 15 different versions of "Atom Heart Mother". You might say they were bored, but you and I are the listeners, and we experience different things when hearing something different. This is the benefit of the artistry in the bootleg area.

But the whole "piracy" thing, is not something that I will stand by or accept. And whatever you do, please at least understand this about me. I'm about the artistry, not the piracy ... even though I have had a screenplay stolen, and will never be able to get another one sold because mine are now protected at a couple of national libraries. And this intimidates a group of business folks, that are looking to make money, and don't really give a darn about your work.

Btw, I DID PRODUCE a record album, for Guy Guden. The total cost for 1000 copies was $2800 dollars (sorry, don't remember the exact figure), or about $2.80 per album. This was in 1978, by the way. That included the hard cover and the cellophane and Guy's design and such. It did not include the "master" which the folks at the place did for a nominal small fee, since their money was obviously in the number of LP's done. I did not lose on that deal and we got the money back for it, and the rest was saved. It featured Guy's comedy. Just like the discussion here, the album was fine but Guy's work on the air in his comedy was far superior to the album, even if he was hoping to use it as a lead in to his acting ability, which was exceptional and quite disciplined on the stage.

All in all, just don't confuse what I posted. I do not support piracy, and will not even REVIEW an album that I do not have the CD of! Why? ... I LOVE THE MUSIC I HAVE ... you know and understand that, and I do not wish to corrupt that love and appreciation. that appreciation was acquired from a long time of buying a lot of LP's, imports, all the way to 1985 and 1990, because it was the only blood that fed this vampire. Piracy, for me, was always theft, as it still is.

But I have seen theft on my own work. But waiting for a nickel to arrive in my mail tomorrow is not something that I can live with or from. Besides that, I'm an "enfant terrible" and like many of us here, extremely independent, but I will tell you, that if someone robs me, go ahead, but that person's kharmic disposition is going to take a severe hit, and hopefully it won't destroy their life or family!