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Topic ClosedShould the Beach Boys be considered Proto?
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 02:45
Aye, it's not a bad list by any stretch, it's just a little too selective, short of being definitive and far from being balanced to be be anything other than one man's opinion. I don't see that there is any need to pick-over it further, we can all suggest other bands and albums that we'd expect to see on it and some we'd prefer to see in place of some already listed. 
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Points: 65250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 02:30
It's not a bad list but it does seem rather unedified
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 02:21
^ & ^^ The more I look at that list the more it appears to be a list of favourites rather than anything meaningful. 
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Points: 65250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 02:07
^ Maybe because whoever compiled that list thinks of ELP's debut as a pop album, which of course it was.  But I tend to agree with you.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 01:25
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ I spoke with Sven Yruarealwaysspacedoutson at Rockprog.com and he said that "Serbs that don't eat Swedish meatballs are not valid" and then hung up on me.  Well, I tried.
Also, what ELP's debut doing at "progressive roots" list?
Progressive rock was already the most fashionable thing in the moment when ELP's debut was released, and ELP was the first prog supergroup. Put ELP's debut on a "roots" list, it's silly as if someone made ​​e.g. punk roots list with London Calling on it.




Edited by Svetonio - September 19 2014 at 01:28
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 19:10





^ I spoke with Sven Youarealwaysspacedoutson at Rockprog.com and he said that "Serbs that don't eat Swedish meatballs are not valid" and then hung up on me.  Well, I tried.








Edited by SteveG - September 19 2014 at 14:47
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 17:22
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 

(...)

The Beach Boys: Pet Sounds. released may 16, 1968 (with track listing)
Good Vibrations. No release date.

Jefferson Airplane: Surrealistic Pillow. released Feb,1967

The Beatles: Sgt. Pepper, Magical Mystery Tour (sic?) released Jun. 1, 1967

Pink Floyd: Piper At the Gates of Dawn.

Moody Blues: Days Of Future Past. released. Nov. 1967

Frank Zappa: We're Only In it For The Money. released Sep, 1968

The Nice: Ars Longa Vita Brevis. released Cec, 1968

King Crimson: In the Court of the Crimson King. released Oct, 1969

Frank Zappa: Hot Rats. released Oct, 1969

Soft Machine: Third. Rekeased Jun,1970

ELP: Emerson, Lake And Palmer. released 1970

(...)




No Freak Out by The Mothers ? No Children of the Future and Sailor by The Steve Miller Band? No Music In A Doll's House by Family? That list is not valid.
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 11:23
^Go Sweden!Beer 

Eight pages on the Beach Boys. Who would have thought that?Shocked
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 11:19
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If early Progressive Rock (1969-7?) had developed solely from those 5 releases it would be an entirely different genre to the one we know today.




Correct. Note the list from Rockprog,com in the post above. That is a more balanced view of "Proto Prog" than I've seen in many sources. The Swedes do know Prog.
Our Proto Prog category lists 18 British artists, 16 American, 1 Canadian, 1 Australian, 1 Dutch, 1 Slovakian and 2 Spanish, and since we are multinational and have Swedish members here who know their Prog, we also list 2 Swedish artists for good measure. I would call that as balanced a view as anyone's. 

We are not an encyclopaedia, we are a review site. If we were to formally document the history and development of Progressive Rock then the Beach Boys would most certainly be mentioned along with other bands and artists from that era and earlier that we don't list in the PP category, but we don't have that - the category description on the Proto Prog page is not an essay on the history of the formative years of Progressive Rock.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 10:45
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Interrstingly, website Prog Rock.Com has it's own 'proto' like catogry called "Progressive Roots" and lists their following top 5 from the oldest to the newest as such:

1. Pet Sounds-Beach Boys
2. Good Vibrations-Beach Boys
3. Surrealistic Pillow-Jefferson Airplane
4. Sgt. Pepper's-The Beatles
5. Piper At The Gates of Dawn-Pink Floyd



No Strawberry Fields Forever / Penny Lane in the top five?! Shocked
 
It is not a top-5 chart but a chronology or timeline. SteveG was being a very misleading in numbering this list and in calling it a "top 5". And the list compiler, Proc Rock Dot Carm, (a little unknown radio channel) is being very selective. But whatever it takes to make a point is fair game, what he really needs to do is find well known Prog website with some provenance and gravitas that supports the assertion... something like Progears, Proggnosis, the New Gibraltar Encyclopaedia of Prog Rock (GEPR) or ProgressoR (just kidding about with the last one)... except none of them do. 


...being very misleading? For what evil purose was I doing that? Do you even think before you type? (Sigh)

::snip::

I never accused you of a nefarious purpose or even a deliberate intent. To do that would be an assumption on my part and as I have told you countless times, I assume nothing. You numbered the list and referred to it as their top 5 - that is misleading. [snide remark yet again ignored] (sigh indeed).
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 10:06
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

It is a much more balanced "prog roots" picture than what you presented via omission.
True, I've learned that being expedient is a negative exercise and that only hurt my argument. The whole story does the Rockprog.com post and the album Pet Sounds the justice it deserves as well.


Edited by SteveG - September 18 2014 at 10:23
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 10:03
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If early Progressive Rock (1969-7?) had developed solely from those 5 releases it would be an entirely different genre to the one we know today.




Correct. Note the list from Rockprog,com in the post above. That is a more balanced view of "Proto Prog" than I've seen in many sources. The Swedes do know Prog.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 10:02
It is a much more balanced "prog roots" picture than what you presented via omission.
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 09:59
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Interrstingly, website Prog Rock.Com has it's own 'proto' like catogry called "Progressive Roots" and lists their following top 5 from the oldest to the newest as such:

1. Pet Sounds-Beach Boys
2. Good Vibrations-Beach Boys
3. Surrealistic Pillow-Jefferson Airplane
4. Sgt. Pepper's-The Beatles
5. Piper At The Gates of Dawn-Pink Floyd



No Strawberry Fields Forever / Penny Lane in the top five?! Shocked
 
It is not a top-5 chart but a chronology or timeline. SteveG was being a very misleading in numbering this list and in calling it a "top 5". And the list compiler, Proc Rock Dot Carm, (a little unknown radio channel) is being very selective. But whatever it takes to make a point is fair game, what he really needs to do is find well known Prog website with some provenance and gravitas that supports the assertion... something like Progears, Proggnosis, the New Gibraltar Encyclopaedia of Prog Rock (GEPR) or ProgressoR (just kidding about with the last one)... except none of them do. 


...being very misleading? For what evil purose was I doing that? Do you even think before you type? (Sigh)

My short numbered list was done for the sake of expediency and no other reason.

This list that is not numbered but put out Progrock.com  (http:/ / www.rockprog.com) is in their  "Progressive Roots"  write up is not just for fun and is chrononlogical. It is not numbered but in an effort not to mislead the gullible public I will present it chronoligically without numbering just as they have under "Important Albums" without omissions:

The Beach Boys: Pet Sounds. released may 16, 1968 (with track listing)
Good Vibrations. No release date.

Jefferson Airplane: Surrealistic Pillow. released Feb,1967

The Beatles: Sgt. Pepper, Magical Mystery Tour (sic?) released Jun. 1, 1967

Pink Floyd: Piper At the Gates of Dawn.

Moody Blues: Days Of Future Past. released. Nov. 1967

Frank Zappa: We're Only In it For The Money. released Sep, 1968

The Nice: Ars Longa Vita Brevis. released Cec, 1968

King Crimson: In the Court of the Crimson King. released Oct, 1969

Frank Zappa: Hot Rats. released Oct, 1969

Soft Machine: Third. Rekeased Jun,1970

ELP: Emerson, Lake And Palmer. released 1970

This is the is the completion of the list un-numbered for the conspiracy therorist in the crowd.

Note what a complete and balanced picture it presents to rock music before the term Progressive Rock came into vogue.






Edited by SteveG - September 18 2014 at 11:42
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 06:08
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ but there is no "Surrealistic Pillow" song
That whole list is confusing - there's 1 song and 4 albums.
The list has been taken out of context: here is the original Prog Rock Dot Carm "Roots" webpage: RockStory - Progressive Rock Roots
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 05:48
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ but there is no "Surrealistic Pillow" song
That whole list is confusing - there's 1 song and 4 albums.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 05:43
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ but there is no "Surrealistic Pillow" song
Surrealistic Pillow the album was for me always (and still is) a nice psychedelic rock / folk rock album, but there is no "p" of  prog imo.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 04:27
If early Progressive Rock (1969-7?) had developed solely from those 5 releases it would be an entirely different genre to the one we know today.
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Points: 65250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 03:56
^ but there is no "Surrealistic Pillow" song
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 03:51
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha KingCrInuYasha wrote:

^ I guess they figured that since those two were originally supposed to be on Pepper, there was no need to put in on there, thinking that fans would associate the single with the album.
I think that as they have already put Good Vibrations the single with the albums in a top five "progressive roots" list, they were supposed to put Strawberry Fields Forever / Penny Lane the single instead of Pepper.
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