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Chris S
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Joined: June 09 2004
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Points: 7028
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 21:42 |
^ Ommadawn.......bang on
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Dellinger
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Location: Mexico
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Points: 12732
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 21:24 |
rogerthat wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
Though I might think that Mike Oldifield is in a very similar position to Pink Floyd too. He's not so overly complex nor virtuoso, but the melodies and atmospheres are his strong point... or at least were in the 70's. |
I am not at all familiar with Oldfield - somehow just slipped my attention - so cannot comment. I am not a huge fan of Tubular Bells but it does emphasis atmosphere rather than virtuosity from what I remember. |
Well, if you didn't like Tubular Bells, you might not like the other 70's output from Oldfield (and even less probable his later popier albums). However, it might just as well do to check something else too. Or perhaps give Tubular Bells another chance. One piece I really love is "Ommadawn", specially the first side (or part 1, however), perhaps you might just as well check that one out.
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Chris S
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Joined: June 09 2004
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Points: 7028
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 21:19 |
M27Barney wrote:
Punks were just a tool to make more money for the labels and backers, the prog musicians were getting to be costly, because they wanted to do THEIR thing, rather than sell moron music to the masses....
The great rock an roll swindle INDEED! |
Smacks of immaturity, that comment. You might be a 100 years old for all I know
Anyway punk was a musical rebellion that morphed very quickly and most of it was not moron music for the masses. Stop being so self righteous.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Mirror Image
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2011
Location: United States
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Points: 2111
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 21:07 |
Damn, all of this talk about Dark Side makes me want to listen to it yet again.
Edited by Mirror Image - April 17 2014 at 21:09
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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Mirror Image
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Joined: December 13 2011
Location: United States
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Points: 2111
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 21:04 |
M27Barney wrote:
I think that they are trying to justify THEIR OPINION that DSOTM is the best Floyd (if not this sites) output to date.
I disagree, and no amount of telling me how it appeals on so many levels blah blah blah, will not make me change my mind!
It is a simplistic effort, and a very POPULAR release! no question, but I think that most people equate "popularity" with "quality"....
as I said, I remain unconvinced of the work in comparison with it's contemporaries - such as Tales from Topographic Oceans, Selling England by the Pound and Brain Salad Surgery! (all of which are about three billion times better! (IMO)). |
Look man, nobody here is out to get you and nobody really cares what you think about Dark Side of the Moon. Your opinion is as insignificant as mine. The point I want to make is it doesn't matter if you like the album or not, it's place in prog history has been established. Contest it all you want, disagree all you want, argue all you want. The album is a masterpiece lyrically and musically. It's kind of like me trying to argue that Beethoven or Mozart weren't geniuses just because I happen to like other composers' music better. We all have our own preferences but this doesn't mean we should dump all over something just because we don't think it's up to snuff with our own favorites.
Accept or don't. I don't really care. I said what I had to say.
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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: infinity
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Points: 30850
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 20:49 |
True. Tales from Topographic Oceans, Selling England by the Pound and Brain Salad Surgery are insignificant compare to The Dark Side of the Moon.
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
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Points: 3136
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 12:55 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
I think you're missing the point M27Barney as what (I think) they're trying to tell you is that the lyrics for DSOTM are brilliant because people who would not ordinarily listen to Prog or any other sort of esoteric art music, respond to the thematic promptings of this album on a subliminal level that vouchsafes the popularity of what has become an artifact of shared aesthetic experience. Yeah OK dumb f*cks can dig the emotion and concept on DSOTM, deal with it and embrace art that can be embraced by everyone. The corollary is an indefensible snobbery ain't it?
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I think that they are trying to justify THEIR OPINION that DSOTM is the best Floyd (if not this sites) output to date.
I disagree, and no amount of telling me how it appeals on so many levels blah blah blah, will not make me change my mind!
It is a simplistic effort, and a very POPULAR release! no question, but I think that most people equate "popularity" with "quality"....
as I said, I remain unconvinced of the work in comparison with it's contemporaries - such as Tales from Topographic Oceans, Selling England by the Pound and Brain Salad Surgery! (all of which are about three billion times better! (IMO)).
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
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Points: 3136
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 12:45 |
Punks were just a tool to make more money for the labels and backers, the prog musicians were getting to be costly, because they wanted to do THEIR thing, rather than sell moron music to the masses....
The great rock an roll swindle INDEED!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 11:27 |
M27Barney wrote:
And although you may think that the DSOTM lyric sheet is all that people need to understand human beings and their "condition" - I reckon a bit more reading is required!
and my argument stands.....the generalisations found in Water's lyrics are open to interpretation (as are all lyrics) so they are no more sublime than the following I have just made up now!
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Well, they are not quite so open that you can choose to intentionally look through a pedantic microscope and twist a worldly-wise sort of observation wildly out of context by trying to scientifically evaluate it. As I said earlier, the entire concept of Time, and not just the part of time flying out of reach as one gets older, would fall flat if you strictly applied the rules of physics to it. The sun does not actually set on you nor does it rise again. But people still refer to sunrise and sunset in everyday conversations maybe because watching its movements through the day, the rise and fall, has a rhythm of its own. As Iain has also observed, Waters has simply spoken in language that everyone can understand. It's nobody's case that that is all that is required to understand the human condition. Yet somebody's got to write a bloody album that doesn't have to revolve around wittier-than-thou wordplay and extremely involved concepts, otherwise the day may well come when only the artist and his sympathetic neighbours sit around the stereo to listen to the album with nobody else interested. What you are trying to do is to hold the lyrical simplicity of DSOTM itself against it, when it is an intentional choice and one that i believe has an important place in the world of arts. Maybe that explains why the world believed them all too easily when the punks accused prog of being pretentious.
Edited by rogerthat - April 17 2014 at 11:30
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 11:19 |
Dellinger wrote:
Though I might think that Mike Oldifield is in a very similar position to Pink Floyd too. He's not so overly complex nor virtuoso, but the melodies and atmospheres are his strong point... or at least were in the 70's. |
I am not at all familiar with Oldfield - somehow just slipped my attention - so cannot comment. I am not a huge fan of Tubular Bells but it does emphasis atmosphere rather than virtuosity from what I remember.
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ExittheLemming
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Points: 11415
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 09:13 |
I think you're missing the point M27Barney as what (I think) they're trying to tell you is that the lyrics for DSOTM are brilliant because people who would not ordinarily listen to Prog or any other sort of esoteric art music, respond to the thematic promptings of this album on a subliminal level that vouchsafes the popularity of what has become an artifact of shared aesthetic experience. Yeah OK dumb f*cks can dig the emotion and concept on DSOTM, deal with it and embrace art that can be embraced by everyone. The corollary is an indefensible snobbery ain't it?
Edited by ExittheLemming - April 17 2014 at 09:15
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M27Barney
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Joined: November 09 2006
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Points: 3136
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Posted: April 17 2014 at 08:22 |
So, you espouse that the lyrical content of DSOTM contains such sophistry, I am incapable of understanding them! - Are you on drugs??
As interesting as Floyds lyrical content may be to some people - I don't think you'll find that anything that requires too much intelligence to interpret - you can read any amount of bath-tub philosophy into any lyrical syntax! I for one find Anderson's word games far more enjoyable than Waters output! And suggesting that the middle class English white man has more insight into the human condition than anybody of similar education and life experience is LUDICROUS!
I think that you are a Monty Python character , I can see you prancing round your house like John Cleese in the "Ministry of Silly Walks" sketch!
And although you may think that the DSOTM lyric sheet is all that people need to understand human beings and their "condition" - I reckon a bit more reading is required!
and my argument stands.....the generalisations found in Water's lyrics are open to interpretation (as are all lyrics) so they are no more sublime than the following I have just made up now!
"Third Law of Thermodynamics so Harsh.
'Bloody hell, it's freezing'....but came there no reponse...."
Edited by M27Barney - April 17 2014 at 08:24
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 22:51 |
M27Barney wrote:
So what part of the concept am I obviously too stupid to understand? |
First of all, you utterly failed to grasp the simple lyrics to the song "Time". Your little foray into science missed the point:
M27Barney wrote:
Strangely, though (and you cannot prove otherwise as its a fact) clearly as earth is slowing down in it's spin! Each day is in fact slightly longer than the last! so as you get older the days are actually getting longer (not shorter). The child's perception of time is seemingly different than of an older adult! But this perception difference is very hard to quantify as it is clearly different depending on the context that the brain is using when parsing the effect of actual time against perceived time!!! |
Roger Waters rebuts your argument when he wrote :"The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, shorter of breath and one day closer death". Time and space do not change from their fundamental laws, but as anyone who has reached middle age can attest, the allusions and metaphors in the song hit home ("Run rabbit run/ Dig that hole catch the sun/ When at last the work is done/ don't sit down it's time to dig another one", etc.). It is not science that is being referred to, it is allusive to the insanity of doing the same thing every day and expecting a different outcome.
M27Barney wrote:
Please tell me as I can't wait to be intellectually fulfilled with the knowledge that I cannot grasp such monumental truths as set down in the Canon of Floyd!! |
I will try, but I don't believe you have the wherewithal to be an apt pupil. From a progressive standpoint, the overarching concept is seamless as the transitional segues and musical interludes tie the songs into a cohesive whole. As I inferred previously, the album is about madness, or rather, the things that drive people to madness. After all, the working title was at one time Dark Side of the Moon: A Piece for Assorted Lunatics. Isolation, otherness, unfulfillment, greed, conflict, war, poverty, fear of death, even the fear of flying in "On the Run" (Wright disliked flying), and even Syd Barrett's descent into madness are chronicled with deftness and extraordinary attention to detail both in composition and engineering.
There are no "monumental truths" as you spat sarcastically, but rather fundamental truths with great insight into the human condition -- Walt Whitman as opposed to John Milton. As others have agreed, there is a sophistication and sincerity in the lyrics, and DSotM is probably Floyd's best lyrical work. Gone is the breezy psychedelia of Meddle, and it is without the world-weary cynicism of WYWH or the overwrought bitterness of Animals. It struck a chord with many of us in the 70s and it continues to do so with proceeding generations. I have read posters here and reviewers elsewhere relate that there is something missing on both WYWH and Animals (I personally think Animals is one missing song from a masterpiece -- perhaps a rat or pigeon). That opinion has never been the case for DSotM.
That being said, I love both WYWH and Animals for different reasons -- and there are a few better individual songs on either album, but taken as a whole album, it is fairly easy to see that DSotM is Floyd's greatest album.
M27Barney wrote:
Also the analogy of my argument collapsing is fairly offensive and reasonably unfunny - I think you must do BETTER!!! |
This aint no payin' gig, junior. You get what you get.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Dellinger
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 21:07 |
rogerthat wrote:
See, that's the problem for you. You are thinking of them in these slots and how well they fit into them. I was not introduced to Floyd as a prog rock band nor do I know that they have ever considered themselves as such. So I was more interested in the emotions in their music than the musical complexity. And in terms of emotions, none of those bands can hold a candle to Floyd, according to me. They don't nearly approach, say, the unhinged madness of Don't Leave Me Now. |
Though I might think that Mike Oldifield is in a very similar position to Pink Floyd too. He's not so overly complex nor virtuoso, but the melodies and atmospheres are his strong point... or at least were in the 70's.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 19:00 |
See, that's the problem for you. You are thinking of them in these slots and how well they fit into them. I was not introduced to Floyd as a prog rock band nor do I know that they have ever considered themselves as such. So I was more interested in the emotions in their music than the musical complexity. And in terms of emotions, none of those bands can hold a candle to Floyd, according to me. They don't nearly approach, say, the unhinged madness of Don't Leave Me Now.
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M27Barney
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Joined: November 09 2006
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Points: 3136
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 12:03 |
I have NEVER considered myself a hard-core Floyd fan!!! But from a symphonic prog perspective I think that WYWH & Animals (and Meddle track) are the stand out material that I have enjoyed listening to over the years when I wanted a break from Yes/Genesis/ELP/Camel....Mind you Floyd have always had a sort of acceptability (e.g. being "cool" to like) that the others just didn't have...thus the "buying prog in a plain cover" as Wakeman put it, did not apply - and I have always thought that as such I could place some Floyd as a sort of pseudo-prog! (but not the material I mentioned above) That IS MY OPINION - like it or lump it!
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 10:11 |
Dellinger wrote:
I never thought you meant to say that WYWH was a bad album, but you said that Floyd fans wouldn't consider it their favourite, as oposed to prog fans but not particularly Floyd fans. And as a Floyd fan, I can tell you that's not true, my favourite one is WYWH. However, I agree with you, I don't see such a huge gap between WYWH and Animals... as a matter of fact, I might actually have some trouble choosing my favourite of the two, and Animals has been winning in my apreciation vs WYWH. As for The Wall, I do find a notable gap in my apreciation for that album vs the other two.
As for Genesis, there I might say I'm not a hardcore fan of the band, but I certainly like SEBTP best from them (and if it were not for Epping Forest it would be a no brainer 5 star for me), and I certainly like it better than Cryme, mainly because on Cryme, the only long song I do like is Musical Box, and I find the other ones rather annoying (even though the album does have some lovely shorter songs). |
Oh, I never meant to say hardcore Floyd fans would not rate WYWH as their favourite. Just that a lot of them would also choose some other album from their discography while casual fans seem to rate either WYWH or DSOTM as their favourite.
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M27Barney
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 05:20 |
richardh wrote:
Mirror Image wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
You're right, Roger. The lyrics to "Time" are metaphoric and refer to how we "fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way", and the feeling that years get shorter as you get older until in essence one runs out of time. But then the lyrics get very specific with "The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older". So obviously Barney is not at all clear on the concept, and his argument collapses like a fat girl on a wobbly barstool.What Barney utterly fails to understand is that DSotM is a better concept album than either WYWH or Animals. The lyrics are indeed superb, and the transitions from one song to the next are brilliant and seamless. In conceptual implementation, lyrical continuity, engineering and sound innovation DSotM is a progressive landmark, and I mean progressive in every sense of the word. |
So much truth in this post that it really made me smile and anyone who cannot at least acknowledge Dark Side of the Moon as a work of genius should be chained to the floor and bullwhipped. |
you might have to include Roger Waters as well as me then as didn't he say that he was surprised 'he got away with it'?
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So what part of the concept am I obviously too stupid to understand?
Please tell me as I can't wait to be intellectually fulfilled with the knowledge that I cannot grasp such monumental truths as set down in the Canon of Floyd!!
Also the analogy of my argument collapsing is fairly offensive and reasonably unfunny - I think you must do BETTER!!!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 02:37 |
sankalp1989 wrote:
I don think its overratted... but yeah i do agree tht its nt tr best though... |
That's it!
Problem solved - It's got Pigs, Dogs and Sheep but not enough Rats.
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What?
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sankalp1989
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Joined: April 14 2014
Location: India
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Points: 42
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Posted: April 16 2014 at 02:00 |
I don think its overratted... but yeah i do agree tht its nt tr best though...
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