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mystic fred 
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 Posted: October 13 2007 at 03:36 |
will check it, but , theoretically some prog related albums could, if enough 5 star ratings are given, could overshadow the 100%prog groups and push them down in the ratings, we could then end up with for example Led Zep, Iron Maiden Sabbath and Deep Purple at the top of the ratings on a prog rock site, and some worthy prog bands shoved into obscurity.?
much as i value pr/pp on this site as it serves the influences and development of prog, i suggest allowing NO ratings for proto prog and prog related at all...?
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 Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Raff
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 03:13 |
 mystic fred wrote:
pleased as i am to see one of my favourite heavy rock bands be included in PA, it is a bit irritating that experienced reviewers give their prog related albums 5 stars for "essential masterpiece of progressive music" .....and get away with it...??
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See Peter's thread in the Help Improve the Site section, Steve... I think it's time to address the question seriously. I have always given those albums 5 stars if I thought they deserved them as masterpieces of MUSIC. However, I agree that the wording should be changed once and for all, otherwise the controversy will never end.
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mystic fred
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 03:09 |
pleased as i am to see one of my favourite heavy rock bands be included in PA, is it not a bit irritating that experienced reviewers give their prog related albums 5 stars for "essential masterpiece of progressive music" .....and get away with it...??
Edited by mystic fred - October 13 2007 at 03:25
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Raff
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Posted: October 13 2007 at 02:50 |
I have to say I'm surprised this thread is still open, and no blood has been shed during the night... Might it be that people have become reasonable in the meantime?   However, I can't deny I would've been happier if someone had taken notice of my post, which dealt with the issue of the ratings for PP/PR albums... I suppose I'll just have to start a new thread about it!
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 23:33 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Well guys, you know I'm not in favor of the inclusion of BS, but the chief has spoken and we must accept, there's no use for more debate.
The T wrote:
That's the attitude! 
Either non-yet-prog-fans will stumble with Sabbath on their searches and find some incredible music (then we gain more people to the prog cause) or "elitists" will leave PA because of this inclusion... Well, it's my opinion, that ANYWAY WE WIN HERE.    |
BTW: T please, as we know how to lose and accept some facts we don't agree with, you must learn to win, all those cheers, rubbing in our faces and calling us elitists that must leave Prog Archives, cause more problems, please avoid them.
Knowing how to win is harder than knowing how to loose.
Iván |
I guess my words weren't the right ones...I apologize... What I wanted my word to mean is, and please I hope I'm understood now: if there are people that, just because of BS inclusion in PA, think they have to leave PA, OK! We win. I never intended, NEVER EVER, to say "those who opposed BS inclusion are elitists and must leave". NO! I intended to say that people that can't take the addition of a polemical band and leave because of that are certainly not the kind of music fans I belive are better for PA. Please understand me. If you Ivan (and Atkingani, please) tought I meant anything against you or any other detractor of Sabbath, I APOLOGIZE, with all my respect. But I won't take back my statement that those who leave PA just because ONE band is added, well, they're better off GONE. It's like if I have left when Coheed and Cambria were added. Would I have been the right kind of person to help PA? Would I have even been considered for collaborator? No.
That's what I meant and please, TRIPLE apologies if you misunderstood me. 
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 22:31 |
 Now, before I really DO go off the rails on a crazy train  , I'm going to have a cold beer (this unopened one has long since gone warm), bid you all a good night, and play some nice, mindless RA2! 
All abooooaaard! Hahahahaha....
Edited by Peter - October 12 2007 at 22:38
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Atkingani
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Joined: October 21 2005
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 22:11 |
The T wrote:
A B Negative wrote:
I first found Prog Archives when I was looking for information about Krautrock. Although I was familiar with most of the "big" prog groups and some of the less well known, I had no idea just how much prog was out there. PA has helped me discover some fantastic music.
If someone stumbles upon PA while looking for information about Black Sabbath, I reckon it can go two ways. Either they'll say "Sabbath aren't prog" and look elsewhere or, like me, they'll find out about fantastic music they never knew existed. |
That's the attitude!
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Teo, no one has to leave PA because Black Sabbath was added in the "related" category... all people, "elitists" or not, have more than 3,000 bands to enjoy - it will take an entire life to appreciate them all, I'm quite sure!
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Guigo
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Peter
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 22:01 |
Finnforest wrote:
I have one suggestion: Can we change the star definitions to say "rock" instead of "prog" or "progressive." There are now many albums here that I would consider "essential to a rock collection" but are most certainly not "essential to a prog collection" or a "masterpiece of progressive music."
Just a suggestion. If the site wants to move to a wider inclusion of mainstream bands, they should adjust that terminology accordingly, no?
Have fun OZ fans!
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I'm p*ssed off! 
No, not at Sabbath's inclusion (I'm a big boy, and it's hardly the first such "losing" case I've disputed -- c'est la vie ) but at the fact that I just laboriously typed an hour-long post (I type slowly) in support of what Finnforest said above about the words in the ratings, but the damned server timed out and it disappeared INTO THE VOID! Aaaarrrgghhhh!
(deep breath)
Suffice to say: don't hold your breath waiting for that LONG overdue change, Finnforest my friend, because I for one have been asking for precisely that, pretty much since day one (and I've been here a while)!
By all accounts, this site does not list only prog music (if that was ever the case -- this broader reach is far from new), so why do we still insist on essentially "inviting" non-prog artists to compete for ratings points in a skewed game where they technically don't even qualify for any grade above a "C" (three stars)???
It is blatantly unfair, counter-intuitive, and the average Joe review scanner probably doesn't even read those generic words that get forcibly appended to OUR reviews.
Admittedly, I will still give top marks to a non-prog, classic rock album which I find worthy as fine MUSIC (and then I feel compelled to digress and explain that in my review), but many won't (and say as much), and who the heck wants to buy music which is (apparently) only C-grade?
Dump those ratings words, or at least greatly simplify them, and remove all references to "prog" in them!
Edited by Peter - October 13 2007 at 00:27
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:36 |
Well guys, you know I'm not in favor of the inclusion of BS, but the chief has spoken and we must accept, there's no use for more debate.
The T wrote:
That's the attitude!
Either non-yet-prog-fans will stumble with Sabbath on their searches and find some incredible music (then we gain more people to the prog cause) or "elitists" will leave PA because of this inclusion... Well, it's my opinion, that ANYWAY WE WIN HERE. |
BTW: T please, as we know how to lose and accept some facts we don't agree with, you must learn to win, all those cheers, rubbing in our faces and calling us elitists that must leave Prog Archives, cause more problems, please avoid them.
Knowing how to win is harder than knowing how to loose.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 12 2007 at 21:49
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:35 |
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I don't care who they decide put on here, but there are a lot of blues derived riffs in Sabbath's music.
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:27 |
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the fact that Sabbath came from rock, which is blues-based, doesn't negate the fact that they progressed their form in a direction - however limited - away from it within the context of heavy metal... this is in essence what Progmetal artists do
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rileydog22
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Joined: August 24 2005
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:24 |
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Towards...of all things...blues based rock! It's basically Cream, but simpler and with more distortion.
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:23 |
rileydog22 wrote:
Rock 'n' roll begat rock, rock begat prog rock.
Replace Chuck Berry with Cream, if you'd prefer a more immediate influence.
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no not at all... prog rock musicians were moving away from the music of blues-based rock... Cream, Doors, Hendrix, Beatles, whomever.. Sabbath took up that spirit of expansion in the hard rock/metal arena
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rileydog22
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:20 |
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Rock 'n' roll begat rock, rock begat prog rock.
Replace Chuck Berry with Cream, if you'd prefer a more immediate influence.
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:18 |
rileydog22 wrote:
M@x's argument is basically "Sabbath influenced every metal group, so they influenced prog metal." Well, Chuck Berry influenced every rock group, and thus he influenced prog rock, but that doesn't mean HE should be here. Black Sabbath's influence was not related to progressiveness at all. This is just another silly move towards including every classic rock act ever into the Prog Archives.
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not exactly, your logic doesn't quite follow-- Chuck Berry influenced every rock 'n roll band, not every prog band (if any), but Sabbath did and does have an influence on progressive metal
Edited by Atavachron - October 12 2007 at 21:21
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Cheesecakemouse
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
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Points: 1751
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:15 |
rileydog22 wrote:
M@x's argument is basically "Sabbath influenced every metal group, so they influenced prog metal." Well, Chuck Berry influenced every rock group, and thus he influenced prog rock, but that doesn't mean HE should be here. Black Sabbath's influence was not related to progressiveness at all. This is just another silly move towards including every classic rock act ever into the Prog Archives.
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listen to the albums from Sabbath bloody Sabbath to Never Say Die you'll be surprised how proggy they actually became
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Cheesecakemouse
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Joined: April 05 2006
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Points: 1751
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:14 |
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I'm surprised how people are keeping cool heads over Sabbath's inclusion
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rileydog22
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Joined: August 24 2005
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:11 |
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M@x's argument is basically "Sabbath influenced every metal group, so they influenced prog metal." Well, Chuck Berry influenced every rock group, and thus he influenced prog rock, but that doesn't mean HE should be here. Black Sabbath's influence was not related to progressiveness at all. This is just another silly move towards including every classic rock act ever into the Prog Archives.
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:04 |
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that's a great Zep 4 write-up, micky
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Barla
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Posted: October 12 2007 at 20:44 |
I'm happy Black Sabbath, the grandfathers of metal, and the infleuence of heavy music as a whole, are here!  Yeah, Metallica should also be here, but they were already rejected...
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Black Sabbath inclusion
