Metallica?

^ agreed. He has a point in saying that Metallica are only related to one specific sub genre of prog ... but that didn't stop us from adding Iron Maiden. I'd say that we should be very careful when adding prog related bands anyway, regardless of how many sub genres of prog they influenced.

TheProgtologist wrote: Without addressing all the points that need addressing in this thread I really need to point on thing out....   You guys do realize that just because a band is in Prog Related does NOT MEAN THEY ARE PROG.   When will you guys get that through your heads?   Read the definition of the category,I get sick of saying that.

I think most people realize that.

Still most of us don't want Metallica here. Even if its just in the (unpopular) prog-related category. They are as I see it related to progmetal, not directly to prog.

Certif1ed wrote: akin wrote: Ok, let's analyse you posts the way you analyse mines. 1- You hear a progressiveness in Metallica's music, but you cannot explain rather than saying that you hear something progressive. You invent some "progressive techniques" to them when it is just a opinion, not a fact. 2 - Your concept of intrincate harmonies and melodies and song structures is your opinion, but you state them as it would be the truth while my views are expressed as an opinion that cannot be proven. 3- You think the addition of bands like Metallica will be benefical to the site and attract more people to it and you want the site to list bands that are not in other prog sites with the intent to make people think it is better than the others. 4- You stretch the number of songs from Metallica that could be considered progressive, but anyone can do this to support inclusion of Cat Stevens, Bee Gees, Elton John, etc. It becomes rather easy when you take one song that is prog-related in an album and say that almost the whole album is progressive. 5- You say that Metallica was a primary influence to prog metal, but it is not, mainly in the prog part of prog metal. Rolling Stones are cited as influence by many prog rock musicians, but never for their prog side. The same is with major prog metal bands, like Dream Theater, as you like to mention, and Metallica. So if your opinions have more influence over admins or owners (whether if you are the father-in-law of M@X or if you have lent a big amount of money to them ), you can be with the reason. But if opinions are the same and you only say that your opinion is truth because they are your opinions,  your  participation in the forum will not be useful concerning to Metallica's addition. If you have got something new, bring it along. But if you will keep on the same argument that your opinions are the truth and mine are just opinions, don't waste your time. Better accept the general consensus of the world, that Metallica does not have to do with prog.     OK, you've had some fun, with this post - which I find rude, as you've chosen to attempt to pick my post apart the way that you imagine I do yours as a way of getting your own back, instead of addressing any of the questions I posed or continuing with the discussion.     Sadly, you display a lack of understanding so fundamental that there is no way I'm going to answer this crap -  instead of asking questions and exploring the actual issues (which is my technique), you're just larking around.

If when you confront with a mirroring you act like a child you shouldn't even discuss. I addressed your points exactly the same way you addressed mine and you felt bad. Of course you would answer with this ridiculous answer to try to make the others agree with you because they would take pity on you for being answered without technical points to your technical points, but you did the same with mine. So if you are offended, I was offended too first. I have no fun in doing this, but this is the way you refute the others arguments and I'm doing the same with you.

The T wrote: In many cases, anti-Metallica posts have fallen into the not-proving-but-confirming category, an atmosphere effect where, instead of trying to decide whether something is true or false (in this case, the progresiveness of Metallica), people try to confirm their points of view, disregarding whatever doesn't fit and just trying to confirm what they already think about this situation. I'm not saying we're discussing a scientific matter, which could be proven 100%, but there ARE facts that are undeniable, as others have wisely pointed out. Maybe the discussion, as great as it has been (at moments), should very soon come to a conclusion, with some final "YES" or "NO" from whoever wants to give his/her opinion. Even though the decision is not made here, all of this helps the people making that decision to, well, decide . And, in my opinion, the arguments have been completely in favor of the band's inclusion. At least the musical ones. All the arguments dealing with history, what other sites contain, paranoia and images of PA being ignored and ultimately closed down due to lack of members are, in my view, just side notes to a musical debate that I think has been "won" by one side, if that verb applies.

You say this just because you overrate the musical arguments for and underrate the musical arguments against. No opinion is "winning" if we disconsider your taste.

^ then explain to me how Iron Maiden influenced the prog side of prog metal more than Metallica?

MikeEnRegalia wrote: toolis wrote: ok, let me make my points clearer: Hammett is an excellent guitar player, no doubt about that but he is a heavy metal guitarist all the way.. he's a riff machine, he plays excellent heavy solos, he can play really fast and difficult parts but none of them is prog, at least not for me... all i hear is heavy metal, thrash metal, speed metal, tech metal, heavy rock but not prog... if i'm correct, the only albums that some of you respectfuly consider as prog related are Master... and ...AJFA. am i right? Yes, as far as I'm concerned I only consider those two albums prog-related enough to merit inclusion. MoP much more than AJFA though (see last comment). Master Of Puppets is considered a cornerstone of heavy/thrash metal and influenced many groups to that direction and all i can hear is the same as above: heavy riffs, tech solos, heavy/thrash metal... no prog arrangementsJust one example: the intro of Battery yeah? so? no epics,Sorry, but the track Master of Puppets is an epic. no, it's not.. it's a long song... not anything i would expect to hear from a prog band...That's why we're not calling them "prog". But when you listen to Dream Theater's Train of Thought ... do you not hear an obvious relation? yes, i see a relation: DT to heavy metal.. even today, 20 years after its release, the major thing that this album is praised for is that it's a seminar for rhythm guitar.. James' fifths and sixths (who he had already "borrowed" from Diamond Head...) would later be seen in almost every heavy, thrash, goth, you-name-it metal band... i really can't see what you guys see.. no prog elements in here...There's more to Master of Puppets than riffing ... it's the combination of all musical elements that makes the album unique and innovative. The riffing in combination with Cliff's elaborate bass playing, things like the melodic solo in the track MoP, the downtuned riff of The Thing that Should Not Be, the massive layering of guitars in Orion ... riffing, bass playing, melodic solos, downtuned riffs, guitar layers.. yeah, i see how this could be your best shot, but no! ...AJFA is what Hetfield has admitted it is: an overloaded album, and endless series of heavy riffs... Which is why I would rather call it "technical" than "progressive". finally an agreement... so, ok, this just my opinion and i hope that i've supported it good enough so that i can "participate" in this discussion... may i?Sure! it was a retorical question actually but i guess you got that.....

Edited by toolis - May 24 2007 at 08:09

toolis wrote: ok, let me make my points clearer: Hammett is an excellent guitar player, no doubt about that but he is a heavy metal guitarist all the way.. he's a riff machine, he plays excellent heavy solos, he can play really fast and difficult parts but none of them is prog, at least not for me... all i hear is heavy metal, thrash metal, speed metal, tech metal, heavy rock but not prog... if i'm correct, the only albums that some of you respectfuly consider as prog related are Master... and ...AJFA. am i right? Yes, as far as I'm concerned I only consider those two albums prog-related enough to merit inclusion. MoP much more than AJFA though (see last comment). Master Of Puppets is considered a cornerstone of heavy/thrash metal and influenced many groups to that direction and all i can hear is the same as above: heavy riffs, tech solos, heavy/thrash metal... no prog arrangements Just one example: the intro of Battery no epics, Sorry, but the track Master of Puppets is an epic. not anything i would expect to hear from a prog band... That's why we're not calling them "prog". But when you listen to Dream Theater's Train of Thought ... do you not hear an obvious relation? even today, 20 years after its release, the major thing that this album is praised for is that it's a seminar for rhythm guitar.. James' fifths and sixths (who he had already "borrowed" from Diamond Head...) would later be seen in almost every heavy, thrash, goth, you-name-it metal band... i really can't see what you guys see.. no prog elements in here... There's more to Master of Puppets than riffing ... it's the combination of all musical elements that makes the album unique and innovative. The riffing in combination with Cliff's elaborate bass playing, things like the melodic solo in the track MoP, the downtuned riff of The Thing that Should Not Be, the massive layering of guitars in Orion ... ...AJFA is what Hetfield has admitted it is: an overloaded album, and endless series of heavy riffs... Which is why I would rather call it "technical" than "progressive". so, ok, this just my opinion and i hope that i've supported it good enough so that i can "participate" in this discussion... may i? Sure!

Certif1ed wrote:   The right reasons to dislike Metallica (IMHO) are that they sold out and produced rubbish, and branded their fans pirates - and so on... but there are one or two prog bands who also sold out, let's not forget...

I love Metallica. They're among the top five most important bands in my life.


Edited by Rocktopus - May 24 2007 at 07:31

MikeEnRegalia wrote: toolis wrote: - song length has nothing to do with prog if the music is not prog... oh, and Call Of Kthulu is Mustaine's work who left the band like 25 years ago... Ok, all very interesting ... but if the music is progressive or not is what we are discussing here. You're essentially saying that non-prog music can also feature long songs ... it's not exactly new info. And whether Call of Kthulu was written be Hetfield, Ulrich or Mustaine or when Mustaine was kicked out has nothing to do with whether the song is progressive or not.-Hammet is just a good student (Satriani's student), no innovations in his playing... the guy is using a wah-wah pedal for over two decades now... So because he was Satriani's student for some time he cannot be innovative? Every musician was a student at some point ... and if you think about it, even masters are still students - you never stop learning. And about the wah-wah: It's an old effect - does that mean that it can't be used anymore in prog music, or that it makes the music less prog? I don't think so ...-they don't innovate sounds, they change their sound, very different thing, due to dif productions and their sound has progressed from thrash to heavy metal to heavy rock... The progression and innovation that most of us are discussing here happened in their early albums, from Kill em All to Master of Puppets/AJFA ... after that they drifted off into mainstream territory, influenced by Bob Rock on the Black Album, and on Load/Re-Load they even re-embraced Blues which I found quite interesting, but is really regressive musically.-Ride The Lightning and Master Of Puppets are heavy/thrash metal and Justice... is tech/thrash, not prog... would you call Coroner's Grin, prog? i wouldn't.. Nobody is calling AJFA "Prog" ... you're missing the point.-Metallica have sold many many millions of albums and, yes, many of us listen to Metallica as many classic rock fans do, as many pop music fans do and so on.. so, i don't think they're not for the simple minded.. au contraire, they're very very popular... Master of Puppets wasn't very popular when it was released ... at least not from a mainstream point of view. Not that popularity would contra-indicate Prog anway ... usually the really successful albums are not prog, but there are many exceptions (Dark Side of the Moon, anyone?).-no, they weren't afraid of taking different directions but they never went prog... Load is a back-to-the-routes album with a Sabbath-Zeppelin sound...*sigh* ... as long as you allow their later albums to cloud your judgement, you won't be able to properly participate in these discussions. You have to discuss albums, not bands, because bands constantly change their style ... if you can discuss Close to the Edge without referring to 90125 you should also haven no problem discussing Master of Puppets without referring to Load, am I right?

ok, let me make my points clearer:

Hammett is an excellent guitar player, no doubt about that but he is a heavy metal guitarist all the way.. he's a riff machine, he plays excellent heavy solos, he can play really fast and difficult parts but none of them is prog, at least not for me... all i hear is heavy metal, thrash metal, speed metal, tech metal, heavy rock but not prog...
if i'm correct, the only albums that some of you respectfuly consider as prog related are Master... and ...AJFA. am i right?

Master Of Puppets is considered a cornerstone of heavy/thrash metal and influenced many groups to that direction and all i can hear is the same as above: heavy riffs, tech solos, heavy/thrash metal... no prog arrangements, no epics, not anything i would expect to hear from a prog band... even today, 20 years after its release, the major thing that this album is praised for is that it's a seminar for rhythm guitar.. James' fifths and sixths (who he had already "borrowed" from Diamond Head...) would later be seen in almost every heavy, thrash, goth, you-name-it metal band... i really can't see what you guys see.. no prog elements in here...

...AJFA is what Hetfield has admitted it is: an overloaded album, and endless series of heavy riffs...


so, ok, this just my opinion and i hope that i've supported it good enough so that i can "participate" in this discussion... may i?