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gdub411 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3484
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 Posted: December 31 2004 at 19:03 |
 Garion81 wrote:
Reed Lover wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
If it wasn't for the USA, Britain and the other European countries mentioned by sigod (including the neutral countries mentioned) might still be part of an empire: either a Nazi empire or a Soviet empire (probably the latter). Collective memory is very short.
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Maybe, maybe not. How many lives might have been saved if America had joined sooner?
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Reed, I respect your opinion but I have to call you on this. America in 1938-9 was still coming out of a depression and had very little military capabilities since all were retired at the end of WW1. There was no way we were in any positon to fight anyone. Pearl Harbor is a perfect example of our unreadiness. We did start to manufacture arms which I think almost all were given (not sold because all your WW2 debt to the US was forgiven) to Britan, France and The Soviet Union. Pray tell sir, What more could we have done until we went into all out mobilization? Which really took 2 -3 years to accomplish. We were not yet a real world power. Besides many in our country felt we had already given to many lives to wars in Europe and felt you could handle that one without us. All things considered it would have been 1940 instead of 41. We still had the Empire of Japan to deal with which BTW we received no help with at all. |
Actually that is not true at all Garion. Britain reaverted quite a few ships over to the Indian Ocean to combat the Japanese..or at least protect their interests..either way..this distracted a number of Japanese capital ships to guard over this potential threat. They had the Repulse and Prince of Wales sunk by the Japanese in Indonesia. Australia helped as much as it could as well.
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 18:47 |
Reed Lover wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
If it wasn't for the USA, Britain and the other European countries mentioned by sigod (including the neutral countries mentioned) might still be part of an empire: either a Nazi empire or a Soviet empire (probably the latter). Collective memory is very short.
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Maybe, maybe not. How many lives might have been saved if America had joined sooner? |
Reed, I respect your opinion but I have to call you on this. America in 1938-9 was still coming out of a depression and had very little military capabilities since all were retired at the end of WW1. There was no way we were in any positon to fight anyone. Pearl Harbor is a perfect example of our unreadiness. We did start to manufacture arms which I think almost all were given (not sold because all your WW2 debt to the US was forgiven) to Britan, France and The Soviet Union. Pray tell sir, What more could we have done until we went into all out mobilization? Which really took 2 -3 years to accomplish. We were not yet a real world power. Besides many in our country felt we had already given to many lives to wars in Europe and felt you could handle that one without us. All things considered it would have been 1940 instead of 41. We still had the Empire of Japan to deal with which BTW we received no help with at all.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Eddy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 22 2004
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 637
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 18:08 |
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i think you can say that irag might become our empire? and besides, the rest of the world is practically our empire! OOOOO! OOOO!
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 15:59 |
Arioch wrote:
Reed Lover wrote:
Arioch wrote:
That's the best you can do Reed Lover. Where's that wit of yours now? |
So you are saying I am witty ???
I was kinda saying that if all you've got to offer the world is big boats with big guns then let's all jump for joy! 
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Yes...isn't that what England had all to offer for several centuries. Imitation is the best form of flattery Reedy my boy.
It certainly wasn't their culinary delights and cuisines.
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Is that it?
is that all you've got?
You wanna piece of me?
It's like being savaged by a sheep!
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Arioch
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 169
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 15:54 |
Reed Lover wrote:
Arioch wrote:
That's the best you can do Reed Lover. Where's that wit of yours now? |
So you are saying I am witty ???
I was kinda saying that if all you've got to offer the world is big boats with big guns then let's all jump for joy!
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Yes...isn't that what England had all to offer for several centuries. Imitation is the best form of flattery Reedy my boy.
It certainly wasn't their culinary delights and cuisines.
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Knight of the Swords
Lord of Entropy
Duke of Chaos
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 15:50 |
Arioch wrote:
That's the best you can do Reed Lover. Where's that wit of yours now? |
So you are saying I am witty ???
I was kinda saying that if all you've got to offer the world is big boats with big guns then let's all jump for joy!
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Arioch
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 169
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 15:48 |
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That's the best you can do Reed Lover. Where's that wit of yours now?
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Knight of the Swords
Lord of Entropy
Duke of Chaos
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 15:44 |
Arioch wrote:
So tell me why England once had the largest and most proud navy in the world and has let it shrink into a joke. What a shame! I guess they just don't need it, because they know the USA and it's fleet of 10 Super Carriers will protect them from invasion these days. How many Super Carriers do the rest of the world have?....the answer would be zero. |
Well good for you!
That's really something to be very proud of!
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Arioch
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 169
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 15:40 |
America did actually aquire quite a bit of territory after the Spanish-American War. We had captured or aquired The Phillipines as well as several other Islands in the Pacific and the Aluetians.
Also why doesn't Alaska and Hawaii not count. They were territories before they were states. That would be saying England couldn't count Canada, India, Egypt, or Australia as places they once occupied. That's just stupid.
Actually you could say the momemt after the revolution through much of the 18th century we were expanding our empire as we seized terrritory from the american indians and mexicans until we reached the Pacific.
So tell me why England once had the largest and most proud navy in the world and has let it shrink into a joke. What a shame! I guess they just don't need it, because they know the USA and it's fleet of 10 Super Carriers will protect them from invasion these days. How many Super Carriers do the rest of the world have?....the answer would be zero.
Edited by Arioch
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Knight of the Swords
Lord of Entropy
Duke of Chaos
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 14:13 |
Peter wrote:
Reedy: See Thomas Paine -- The Rights of Man, for one positive American contribution.
See a democratic Germany and Japan for two more.
Hopefully soon, we will also see an American-initiated (& largely funded) global tsunami warning system.
See Jayne Mansfield, Racquel Welch, Marilyn Monroe  , country, folk, bluegrass, blues, jazz, rock and roll, and Echolyn for more.
(No excuse for Stynx, though....)
BTW: Happy New Year, chum!
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Hmmmm...
A positive post for once!!!
HAPPY (smiley,less-serious,self-deprecating) NEW YEAR
To You Peter
And all at Prog Archives Forum!
from the original sh*t-stain on a wedding dress!
Bon chance!
Edited by Reed Lover
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 14:08 |
Hey, well if you're looking for something an American can do for you,
I'm sure gdub will oblige in window removal... thats something, isn't
it! 
As an American myself, I certainly see the ups and downs of America's
"empire." Certainly there are some downsides to American culture, i.e.
dietary habits, among other things I'm sure you can think of them, but
we have to look at things in perspective... as mentioned above, its far
better than Nazi or Soviet rule. Also, democracy has taken hold and
continues to in many third world countries since the end of World War
Two... yes, some Americans use that as a justification for war in Iraq,
I definitely don't... but its happening nonetheless.
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 14:07 |
Reedy: See Thomas Paine -- The Rights of Man, for one positive American contribution.
See a democratic Germany and Japan for two more.
Hopefully soon, we will also see an American-initiated (& largely funded) global tsunami warning system.
See Jayne Mansfield, Racquel Welch, Marilyn Monroe , country, folk, bluegrass, blues, jazz, rock and roll, and Echolyn for more.
(No excuse for Stynx, though....)
BTW: Happy New Year, chum!
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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gdub411
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3484
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 14:04 |
Reed Lover wrote:
You're not tossing anything near my window!
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That's not what you're telling me last night Big Boy!
[/QUOTE]
Actually I told I'd sue if you kept sending me butt plugs through the post!
[/QUOTE]
Tomorrow I set out on my quest for the Holy Golden Buttplug of Anok. It should be wrought with peril and anventure but in the end the reward will be truly satisfying...with a little KY that is
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 14:01 |
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This post is going to be very difficult to understand; I'm finding it difficult to phrase my thoughts. Basically, because
of the power of the States, the bad things about it become much more
obvious. If there were companies in Luxembourg exploiting thirrd world
workers (and I'm not saying there aren't), nobody would notice! People
who want to make a change concentrate on the most obvious threat, and
with the US being the most powerful country, it is seen as the most
obvious threat. There are more rich Americans that can do bad things,
and so more bad things are done by Americans than most other countries.
Look at celebrities: whenever they do something "wrong", the press
hound them, and people get upset. If you or I were to do something
scandalous, it would hardly reach national news and make as hated
figures (well, it depends on how scandalous, I suppose).
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 13:59 |
You're not tossing anything near my window!
[/QUOTE]
That's not what you're telling me last night Big Boy!
[/QUOTE]
Actually I told I'd sue if you kept sending me butt plugs through the post!
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gdub411
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3484
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 13:57 |
Reed Lover wrote:
gdub411 wrote:
Peter wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
If it wasn't for the USA, Britain and the other European countries mentioned by sigod (including the neutral countries mentioned) might still be part of an empire: either a Nazi empire or a Soviet empire (probably the latter). Collective memory is very short. |
Well said, Fitz.
Some of the smugly anti-American folk on this forum would do well to bear the above in mind. Having been born free, they too often seem to take that freedom for granted, and forget the thousands of young Americans (Canadians, Newfoundlanders, Aussies, and New Zealanders too) who lie far from home in European graves, having laid down their lives to overthrow an evil, genocidal tyranny for the greater good of all. All that you enjoy most about your rights and freedom has been dearly paid for in blood. You might want to ponder upon that as you sip your coffee and listen to your music today.
Yes, America is now the most powerful nation in the world (as Greece, Rome, the Mongol Empire, France & England were before), but it is not the most evil nation in the world -- far from it. That is our reality -- get over it.
Global history and politics is a complex, organic, ever-evolving thing. I hate to see people simplify it along the lines of: "America is powerful. Power is bad. American culture is spreading everywhere (even into good old, student-crushing communist China) Wah."
No, I certainly don't applaud everything America does or represents on the global stage, but I ask you: what other country would have served as a better counterweight to the murderous global-domination agenda of the Nazis, Japanese, & Soviets? At any given period in history, one country has to be the most powerful. If not America, who exactly would you rather it was? 
Besides bitching about the ebb and flow of great nations and political systems, and throwing up your hands in despair at your seeming insignificance and powerlessness, what are YOU doing to make the world immediately around you better? What values are you teaching your children? Are you a part of the problem, or of the solution?
Some people here seem to want this forum of (mostly) like-minded music fans to disintegrate into mutually intolerant, prejudiced factions. When they have little to say, they try to stir things up, and pick a fight with people that they do not know. You probably have a neighbour who is wealthier/more powerful than you are -- why not go throw a brick through his window instead?
What an inane thread. Baiting others because they don't live where you do.
The boy across the street/block/city/ocean is bad....
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.....I think Reed lover has more money than me....can I toss a brick through his window?
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You're not tossing anything near my window!
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That's not what you're telling me last night Big Boy!
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 13:50 |
gdub411 wrote:
Peter wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
If it wasn't for the USA, Britain and the other European countries mentioned by sigod (including the neutral countries mentioned) might still be part of an empire: either a Nazi empire or a Soviet empire (probably the latter). Collective memory is very short. |
Well said, Fitz.
Some of the smugly anti-American folk on this forum would do well to bear the above in mind. Having been born free, they too often seem to take that freedom for granted, and forget the thousands of young Americans (Canadians, Newfoundlanders, Aussies, and New Zealanders too) who lie far from home in European graves, having laid down their lives to overthrow an evil, genocidal tyranny for the greater good of all. All that you enjoy most about your rights and freedom has been dearly paid for in blood. You might want to ponder upon that as you sip your coffee and listen to your music today.
Yes, America is now the most powerful nation in the world (as Greece, Rome, the Mongol Empire, France & England were before), but it is not the most evil nation in the world -- far from it. That is our reality -- get over it.
Global history and politics is a complex, organic, ever-evolving thing. I hate to see people simplify it along the lines of: "America is powerful. Power is bad. American culture is spreading everywhere (even into good old, student-crushing communist China) Wah."
No, I certainly don't applaud everything America does or represents on the global stage, but I ask you: what other country would have served as a better counterweight to the murderous global-domination agenda of the Nazis, Japanese, & Soviets? At any given period in history, one country has to be the most powerful. If not America, who exactly would you rather it was?
Besides bitching about the ebb and flow of great nations and political systems, and throwing up your hands in despair at your seeming insignificance and powerlessness, what are YOU doing to make the world immediately around you better? What values are you teaching your children? Are you a part of the problem, or of the solution?
Some people here seem to want this forum of (mostly) like-minded music fans to disintegrate into mutually intolerant, prejudiced factions. When they have little to say, they try to stir things up, and pick a fight with people that they do not know. You probably have a neighbour who is wealthier/more powerful than you are -- why not go throw a brick through his window instead?
What an inane thread. Baiting others because they don't live where you do.
The boy across the street/block/city/ocean is bad....
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.....I think Reed lover has more money than me....can I toss a brick through his window?
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You're not tossing anything near my window!
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gdub411
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3484
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 13:45 |
Peter wrote:
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
If it wasn't for the USA, Britain and the other European countries mentioned by sigod (including the neutral countries mentioned) might still be part of an empire: either a Nazi empire or a Soviet empire (probably the latter). Collective memory is very short. |
Well said, Fitz.
Some of the smugly anti-American folk on this forum would do well to bear the above in mind. Having been born free, they too often seem to take that freedom for granted, and forget the thousands of young Americans (Canadians, Newfoundlanders, Aussies, and New Zealanders too) who lie far from home in European graves, having laid down their lives to overthrow an evil, genocidal tyranny for the greater good of all. All that you enjoy most about your rights and freedom has been dearly paid for in blood. You might want to ponder upon that as you sip your coffee and listen to your music today.
Yes, America is now the most powerful nation in the world (as Greece, Rome, the Mongol Empire, France & England were before), but it is not the most evil nation in the world -- far from it. That is our reality -- get over it.
Global history and politics is a complex, organic, ever-evolving thing. I hate to see people simplify it along the lines of: "America is powerful. Power is bad. American culture is spreading everywhere (even into good old, student-crushing communist China) Wah."
No, I certainly don't applaud everything America does or represents on the global stage, but I ask you: what other country would have served as a better counterweight to the murderous global-domination agenda of the Nazis, Japanese, & Soviets? At any given period in history, one country has to be the most powerful. If not America, who exactly would you rather it was?
Besides bitching about the ebb and flow of great nations and political systems, and throwing up your hands in despair at your seeming insignificance and powerlessness, what are YOU doing to make the world immediately around you better? What values are you teaching your children? Are you a part of the problem, or of the solution?
Some people here seem to want this forum of (mostly) like-minded music fans to disintegrate into mutually intolerant, prejudiced factions. When they have little to say, they try to stir things up, and pick a fight with people that they do not know. You probably have a neighbour who is wealthier/more powerful than you are -- why not go throw a brick through his window instead?
What an inane thread. Baiting others because they don't live where you do.
The boy across the street/block/city/ocean is bad....
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.....I think Reed lover has more money than me....can I toss a brick through his window?
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 13:43 |
Peter:
We all recognise that there is too much generalisation on this forum.
If one thinks back to the different "Most Powerful" nations over the millenia most of them have had many bad points.
However, they have all been a force for progress:learning, advancement of science and mathematics,social systems, legal systems,innovation,Indistrial Revolutions etc.
The good ole USA has been great for "mod cons" but very little else that one could think of (space/weapons etc being achieved through European no-how.)
To paraphrase the oft-quoted "Life Of Brian": "what have the Americans ever done for us?"
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: December 31 2004 at 13:34 |
Fitzcarraldo wrote:
If it wasn't for the USA, Britain and the other European countries mentioned by sigod (including the neutral countries mentioned) might still be part of an empire: either a Nazi empire or a Soviet empire (probably the latter). Collective memory is very short. |
Well said, Fitz.
Some of the smugly anti-American folk on this forum would do well to bear the above in mind. Having been born free, they too often seem to take that freedom for granted, and forget the thousands of young Americans (Canadians, Newfoundlanders, Aussies, and New Zealanders too) who lie far from home in European graves, having laid down their lives to overthrow an evil, genocidal tyranny for the greater good of all. All that you enjoy most about your rights and freedom has been dearly paid for in blood. You might want to ponder upon that as you sip your coffee and listen to your music today.
Yes, America is now the most powerful nation in the world (as Greece, Rome, the Mongol Empire, France & England were before), but it is not the most evil nation in the world -- far from it. That is our reality -- get over it.
Global history and politics is a complex, organic, ever-evolving thing. I hate to see people simplify it along the lines of: "America is powerful. Power is bad. American culture is spreading everywhere (even into good old, student-crushing communist China) Wah."
No, I certainly don't applaud everything America does or represents on the global stage, but I ask you: what other country would have served as a better counterweight to the murderous global-domination agenda of the Nazis, Japanese, & Soviets? At any given period in history, one country has to be the most powerful. If not America, who exactly would you rather it was?
Besides bitching about the ebb and flow of great nations and political systems, and throwing up your hands in despair at your seeming insignificance and powerlessness, what are YOU doing to make the world immediately around you better? What values are you teaching your children? Are you a part of the problem, or of the solution?
Some people here seem to want this forum of (mostly) like-minded music fans to disintegrate into mutually intolerant, prejudiced factions. When they have little to say, they try to stir things up, and pick a fight with people that they do not know. You probably have a neighbour who is wealthier/more powerful than you are -- why not go throw a brick through his window instead?
What an inane thread. Baiting others because they don't live where you do.
The boy across the street/block/city/ocean is bad....
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
|
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
America - Where’s Your Empire?
