Why do you blame collins?

pakish wrote: If you really know about prog music you should know that collins always was the mastermind of genesis. The leaving of Gabriel was a coincidence with the change in gensis music but also with all the musical movement in england, they truly kept on creating new things. The problem is to watch it retrospectivly and not paying attention to the context

Uh, that's a dumb statement.

First off, he wasn't even in the band for the first two or three years of the band's history, and he wasn't in the band during their last chapter (Calling All Stations).  Using the word "always" is immediately and obviously incorrect.

Secondly, his role was mostly of the faithful drummer until he took over for the vocals.

Thirdly, he didn't write or contribute much to the band's music until he took over as singer, and even then, it was nothing compared to Bank's role.

If anyone was the mastermind or leader, it was Tony Banks.  He was there through it all, played the biggest overall part in the band's sound, was always outspoken and put his foot down in band decisions.  If you don't believe me, read the Genesis history book "I Know What I Like".  It's all there in black and white.

Sounds like this forum was started by either a Phil Collins fanatic, or someone just trying to start trouble and argument among Genesis fans...

P.S.  When Gabriel left the band, there was not an immediate change in the sound, so that statement is also incorrect.  Gabriel did play a big role in the group's lyrics, but that didn't necessarily change the overall sound.

 

Edited by Flip_Stone

richardh wrote: Banks was the mastermind in Genesis.

ONLY from a compositional standpoint.

In the 'classic' line-up, you have the arch-typical "chemistry group".

Remove ANYTHING and the equasion suffers.

SM.

Man Overboard wrote: lucas wrote: PC is a very fine drummer, one of my favourites, and he doesn't sing bad (especially on 'No jacket required') so please stop such childish discussion. He is one of the rare drummers who didn't record an album for the art of drumming. And he is not to blame in genesis' change of direction : other prog bands followed the same path (Le Orme, Yes, Banco, ELP, King Crimson, Renaissance, Jethro Tull and many more). And was PG still prog after he left Genesis : OBVIOUSLY NOT. King Crimson never followed that path.  <span style="font-style: italic;">Never</span>.

Huh? I always thought Thela Hun Ginjeet was blatant pop!

I was as agressive as your 'Medieval moving picture' .. , mr. Under!

By the way, where do you live in Holland?

He once borrowed an attachment for my drill and never gave it back, plus I heard that he is forever 'borrowing' ballpoint pens off other musicians and keeping them for himself. And his solo albums suck.

Mr. Collins is no devil. He is a good drummer ("cinema show", "lamb lies down on broadway" etc). We should acknowledge that a rock group can't compose 10 times the same song only different. Collins lead the group to new horizons. This does not mean that I like it better than in the old days with Gabriel. But Gabriel went away. That's a fact. Pretty selfish. And Collins did what he had to do - making simple Pop-Songs. That's fair enough.

Cool down boys!

When I had bought And Then There Were Three I played it two times and then threw it away from my balcony for the birds, I was so upset about some poppy songs and afraid that Phil had taken command of Genesis. I even refused to join my friends to the concert In Leiden, The Netherlands (I still feel very frustrated about that, I missed the 'mirrors-tour').

My problem with Phil Collins is not only that he turned Genesis into a popprog band but also that Phil started to talk very derogatory (that word is from my dictionary) about Seventies progressive rock, in one of the UK music magazines he even said about Pink Floyd that they were boring! Apart from a short compilation Genesis never gave credit to their splendid Seventies progrock heritage in their live set from The Eighties because Phil Collins was not pleased with it. I wish that he was as tolerant as Rush during their concerts, still playing In The Mood for the hardrock fans and Xanadu for the progrock fans!

Chris Stacey wrote: Also I love Steve Hackett but to be really honest his last decent progressive album would probably go all the way back to the early 80's with Defector.

I would agree wholeheartedly with you on all points except this.
IMHO, two among his most outstading works are Guitar Noir and To Watch The Storms...so fresh, ironic, lushful, and spanning so many genres in an excellent way throughout one single album!

And, to be honest in my turn, I think some of Mike and the Mechanics' outputs (like The Living Years and 6) are very good albums!

You know it is amazing, I look back on all the so called expert opinions about Collins, and I have to shake my head in dismay. Collins was ( and hopefully still is) a superb drummer. His vocal support on Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, SEBTP and The Lamb was excellent and created a great combined choral output with Gabriel. Even ' More Fool Me' was IMHO a classic little song and a fine close to " Side One" of SEBTP.

The fact that people forget TOTT, Wind & Wuthering and And Then There Were Three and some think Collins sold the band out have obviously been listening to too much obscure junk like Opeth , dare I say it, IMHO. Collins's strength of character was what made Genesis survive thankfully to many fans from TOTT onwards. His vocals on Second's Out are of the highest calibre, IMHO I even rate Supper's Ready as good as Gabriels, yes poor old Steve Hackett moved on, but what made Genesis so refreshing was that they continually managed to reinvent themselves. People say Collin's lyrics were rediculous, what about Gabriel's compromising stage outfits. Laughable now when viewed on film but at the time as fresh and vivid as driven snow.

Which makes me raise another question, why is it that we totally crucify an artist because they elected to evolve, albeit more commercially? Are we experts and could we do better than making a couple of hundred million quid? The Genesis sound did deteriorate after the Mama album but has anyone tried listening to Face Value or hello I must Be Going? Great albums especially the first by Collins. I don't see anyone crtiscizing Rutherford for Acting Very Strange or the awful latter Mike And The Mechanics. Tony Banks after the incredible A Curious Feeling, even though was not as commercial ( he damn well tried!!!) made some very poor solo material.

All their solo projects helped one another return to the fold to recreate Genesis and I for one love almost evything they produced with the possible exclusion of Invisible Touch and Calling All Stations.I reckon some people think they are such experts on Collin's calibre when to be honest IMHO( there I have said it again) they don't really give the artist due credit and respect for all his contributions to Genesis. On a critical note it is 10 years since he released anything half decent.

Also I love Steve Hackett but to be really honest his last decent progressive album would probably go all the way back to the early 80's with Defector. Show me a band that remained so prolific for so long and tried their damnest to release concept albums up until Mama. Yes even Abacab had a progressive feel to it.

My final point is that if we can have artists like Roger Hodgson or ELO on PA why the hell can we not have Collin's solo work. I am sure it may well fair badly in the ratings but to dismiss his works on the basis of commercialism is hypocrticial. Face Value alone was groundbreaking music.

lucas wrote: And he is not to blame in genesis' change of direction : other prog bands followed the same path (Le Orme, Yes, Banco, ELP, King Crimson, Renaissance, Jethro Tull and many more). And was PG still prog after he left Genesis : OBVIOUSLY NOT.

good point!