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suitkees View Drop Down
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Points: 9050 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2021 at 13:57
^^  I don't know if this is a reaction to my post, because I think I'm 100% on topic and attacking no one in person, but otherwise, you might be surprised that I agree completely with what you say here (it is probably the first of your posts of which I can say that). But confronting the "subject matter" with nonsense is not really my style...


Edited by suitkees - August 02 2021 at 13:57

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Points: 4506 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2021 at 13:50
Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

Attacking a person rather than staying on the topic of discussion expresses that a person is probably an ignoramus.


No, there's not such a thing. Immensely knowledgeable people can do personal attacks, infinitely ignorant people can stay on topic without any insults. It is a matter of temperament, not anything else.

BTW, your first sentence is paradoxical.
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Points: 1396 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2021 at 12:57
Attacking a person rather than staying on the topic of discussion expresses that a person is probably an ignoramus.  Instead of addressing someone’s argument or position, attacking that person’s character only shows desperation in one’s stance.

Moral of the story is, don’t be an ignoramus, confront the subject matter.
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Points: 9050 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2021 at 11:58
^ Very interesting read. And the good thing is that this was written in 2015, so not during the mad times we're living now.

Otherwise, it seems to me an ideological question: personal freedom over societal solidarity. I mean, some clearly privilege their own choices and liberties over the interests and well-being of their community/society. Me, me, me, over we, we, we. The motivations can come from different grounds, but what you post here explains well the functioning of how some can come to certain standpoints.

We cannot generalize of course, but someone who spends 1000s of hours studying/researching bullsh*t, something of that bullsh*t will probably stick to that person...

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Points: 20616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2021 at 11:11
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

According to a 2018 study, people who believe in conspiracy theories tend to show personality traits and characteristics such as:
  • paranoid or suspicious thinking
  • eccentricity
  • low trust in others
  • stronger need to feel special
  • belief in the world as a dangerous place
  • seeing meaningful patterns where none exist

The strongest predictor of belief in conspiracy theories, according to the study, is having a personality that falls into the spectrum of schizotypy.   Schizotypy is a set of personality traits that can range from magical thinking and dissociative states to disorganized thinking patterns and psychosis.


To the extent that most people have some or most of those traits, "Seeing meaningful patterns where none exist" strikes me as the most distinctive and most unfortunate.   That's John Nash stuff, and it explains a lot.


It's worse than that David:
 

Individuals who hold strong beliefs in conspiracies often also score high in narcissism and low in self-esteem, according to 2015 research.

The series of studies, published in Social Psychological and Personality Science, examined individuals to determine whether self-evaluation plays a role in predicting conspiracy beliefs.

“Previous research linked the endorsement of conspiracy theories to low self-esteem,” said Aleksandra Cichocka, principal investigator and corresponding author of the study.

“We propose that conspiracy theories should rather be appealing to individuals with exaggerated feelings of self-love, such as narcissists, due to their paranoid tendencies,” she continued.

In the first study, 202 participants completed a conspiracy beliefs questionnaire, a self-esteem scale, and an individual narcissism questionnaire.  In the conspiracy beliefs questionnaire, participants rated the extent to which they agree with such statements as “A small, secret group of people is responsible for making all major world decisions, such as going to war” and “The American government permits or perpetrates acts of terrorism on its own soil, disguising its involvement.”

Scientists found that among participants, high individual narcissism and low self-esteem significantly predicted conspiracy beliefs.

In the second study, scientists sought to rule out the possibility that collective narcissism contributed to the results of the previous study.

“Because conspiracy theories often refer to malevolent actions of groups, we wanted to distinguish whether it is a narcissistic image of the self or the group that predicts the endorsement of conspiracy theories,” said Cichocka.

“For example…American collective narcissism predicted the endorsement of conspiracy theories involving foreign governments but not the American government,” she continued.

Study 2 determined that collective narcissism does not interfere with the role that individual narcissism and low self-esteem have on conspiracy beliefs.  In other words, individual narcissists with low self-esteem tend to hold beliefs in conspiracies whether or not they also exhibit collective narcissism.

The third study aimed to account for the role low-self esteem plays in conspiracy beliefs by determining its relationship with negativity toward humans in general.

Scientists found that the factor of low self-esteem can indeed be explained by general negativity.

“The effect of low self-esteem on conspiracy beliefs can be largely attributed to the fact that low self-esteem predicts negative perceptions of humanity more broadly,” Cichocka reported.

Though the studies are not able to establish a causal relationship, they do indicate that narcissism, low self-esteem, and conspiracy belief are significantly correlated.

“Narcissists might be especially prone to believe in conspiracy theories due to their elevated self-consciousness connected with exaggerated feelings of being in the center of others’ attention,” said Cichocka.



Edited by SteveG - August 02 2021 at 11:12
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Points: 166183 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 13:55
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

 

What would you call a societal system that treats a large part of their population as outcasts?  How would you describe those people?  Would you consider them as 2nd class citizens?  Would you label that as discrimination? 


Not sure what the situation in the US is, but in Europe you can have a Green Pass not only if you're vaccinated but also (for a short time, to be renewed) with a negative test result or if you have natural immunity. Anyway, does it create second class citizens that people are not allowed running around shooting others? You have the choice to be vaccinated. If you don't, there'll be regulations stopping you from putting others at risk. That's fair enough in my book. 

Its funny how all the 'personal responsibility' people are all about that for others, but when it comes to themselves they believe they should be able to live without consequences. It's almost as if its not about personal responsibility at all... Shocked
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Points: 1396 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 13:13
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

 

What would you call a societal system that treats a large part of their population as outcasts?  How would you describe those people?  Would you consider them as 2nd class citizens?  Would you label that as discrimination? 


Not sure what the situation in the US is, but in Europe you can have a Green Pass not only if you're vaccinated but also (for a short time, to be renewed) with a negative test result or if you have natural immunity. Anyway, does it create second class citizens that people are not allowed running around shooting others? You have the choice to be vaccinated. If you don't, there'll be regulations stopping you from putting others at risk. That's fair enough in my book. 

In the US there is no choice to prove that you have immunity.   Which is a huge disconnect from science and logic.

You would be ok if the mandates keep expanding and individuals are not allowed employment or access to supermarkets? 


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Points: 1396 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 13:08
Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

From a personal friend with the following credentials:  Professor at Veterans Health Administration (VHA) - U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs; Director at Inserm; Former Professor at Mt. Sinai Medicine; Studied Biology at Columbia University; Studied Bs Biology at University of California, Santa Barbara

There seems to be considerable confusion regarding what a vaccine can and cannot do. A vaccine introduces a harmless version or dead virus into your body and in the case of mRNA and newer AdV-based vaccines, it introduces a small part (i.e. spike protein) into your body. 
If all works as expected, the immune system 'sees' this foreign protein and mounts an immune response such that if ever exposed again, a full immune response can occur in hours if not days (depending on factors that I won't go into here now). This ultimately leads to the elimination of the virus from the body before the virus progresses too far and overwhelms the infected individual. 
In rare cases, a vaccine leads to the generation of a 'sterilizing' antibody response in which the virus is eliminated within minutes after entry into the body. Clearly, none of the Covid19 vaccines have elicited a sterilizing response to any great extent and doubtful this occurs in the case of the 'delta' variant, but they are saving lives in numbers that are undeniably and overwhelmingly convincing. 
But here is what vaccines DON'T do:
1-They do not keep the virus from entering your body. If you are near an infected individual, you will breathe the virus in through your nose or your mouth. There is no 'magic' forcefield afforded by a vaccine that stops this. Only a mask will work.
2-They do not keep the virus from multiplying, at least for a short time, in your body. There is a time-lag between exposure and immune-mediated viral elimination. The vaccine shortens that time considerably. 
3-The 'delta' variant of Covid19 appears to multiply faster and evade any sterilizing and some of the neutralizing responses gained by vaccination. The end result is that viral loads (amount of virus in the body and in particular lungs and nose) reach higher levels faster. 
4-The end result to number 3 is that even those vaccinated, while typically asymptomatic, can spread this variant. 
So...let's NOT be surprised when you hear that a bunch of vaccinated people not wearing masks and not socially distancing or taking any other precautions are found to test positive. Posting such things ("OMG, a friend just tested positive AFTER getting the vaccine...") is NOT a surprise and serves to undermine confidence in vaccination. What IS a surprise is if they get seriously ill or die. If those %s creep upwards, we are in trouble. That is the only issue to watch.
Just because you don't get ill does not mean that you do not spread this disease. Hope this clears things up.


A vaccine introduces a harmless version or dead virus into your body and in the case of mRNA and newer AdV-based vaccines, it introduces a small part (i.e. spike protein) into your body. 

Further clarification on this point.. While a traditional vaccine introduces a harmless version or dead virus into your body the mRNA technology does not.  It’s a set of instructions for your cells to produce or make the spike proteins; software for the body.   

The mRNA technology was used on cancer patients over a decade ago with mixed results.  The software was different with a different set of instructions.
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Points: 14892 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 13:05
Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

 

What would you call a societal system that treats a large part of their population as outcasts?  How would you describe those people?  Would you consider them as 2nd class citizens?  Would you label that as discrimination? 


Not sure what the situation in the US is, but in Europe you can have a Green Pass not only if you're vaccinated but also (for a short time, to be renewed) with a negative test result or if you have natural immunity. Anyway, does it create second class citizens that people are not allowed running around shooting others? You have the choice to be vaccinated. If you don't, there'll be regulations stopping you from putting others at risk. That's fair enough in my book. 
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Points: 65313 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 13:03
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

According to a 2018 study, people who believe in conspiracy theories tend to show personality traits and characteristics such as:
  • paranoid or suspicious thinking
  • eccentricity
  • low trust in others
  • stronger need to feel special
  • belief in the world as a dangerous place
  • seeing meaningful patterns where none exist

The strongest predictor of belief in conspiracy theories, according to the study, is having a personality that falls into the spectrum of schizotypy.   Schizotypy is a set of personality traits that can range from magical thinking and dissociative states to disorganized thinking patterns and psychosis.


To the extent that most people have some or most of those traits, "Seeing meaningful patterns where none exist" strikes me as the most distinctive and most unfortunate.   That's John Nash stuff, and it explains a lot.
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Points: 6042 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 12:19
From a personal friend with the following credentials:  Professor at Veterans Health Administration (VHA) - U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs; Director at Inserm; Former Professor at Mt. Sinai Medicine; Studied Biology at Columbia University; Studied Bs Biology at University of California, Santa Barbara

There seems to be considerable confusion regarding what a vaccine can and cannot do. A vaccine introduces a harmless version or dead virus into your body and in the case of mRNA and newer AdV-based vaccines, it introduces a small part (i.e. spike protein) into your body. 
If all works as expected, the immune system 'sees' this foreign protein and mounts an immune response such that if ever exposed again, a full immune response can occur in hours if not days (depending on factors that I won't go into here now). This ultimately leads to the elimination of the virus from the body before the virus progresses too far and overwhelms the infected individual. 
In rare cases, a vaccine leads to the generation of a 'sterilizing' antibody response in which the virus is eliminated within minutes after entry into the body. Clearly, none of the Covid19 vaccines have elicited a sterilizing response to any great extent and doubtful this occurs in the case of the 'delta' variant, but they are saving lives in numbers that are undeniably and overwhelmingly convincing. 
But here is what vaccines DON'T do:
1-They do not keep the virus from entering your body. If you are near an infected individual, you will breathe the virus in through your nose or your mouth. There is no 'magic' forcefield afforded by a vaccine that stops this. Only a mask will work.
2-They do not keep the virus from multiplying, at least for a short time, in your body. There is a time-lag between exposure and immune-mediated viral elimination. The vaccine shortens that time considerably. 
3-The 'delta' variant of Covid19 appears to multiply faster and evade any sterilizing and some of the neutralizing responses gained by vaccination. The end result is that viral loads (amount of virus in the body and in particular lungs and nose) reach higher levels faster. 
4-The end result to number 3 is that even those vaccinated, while typically asymptomatic, can spread this variant. 
So...let's NOT be surprised when you hear that a bunch of vaccinated people not wearing masks and not socially distancing or taking any other precautions are found to test positive. Posting such things ("OMG, a friend just tested positive AFTER getting the vaccine...") is NOT a surprise and serves to undermine confidence in vaccination. What IS a surprise is if they get seriously ill or die. If those %s creep upwards, we are in trouble. That is the only issue to watch.
Just because you don't get ill does not mean that you do not spread this disease. Hope this clears things up.
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Points: 51474 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 11:51
Originally posted by Cboi Sandlin Cboi Sandlin wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Seems to me the practical issue is if hospitals fill up with unvaccinated then it will be harder to get other forms of medical treatment for everyone.


Practical issue? But, but... my freedom. WHAT ABOUT MY FREEDOM??!!!??! ME! ME! ME!

 But no. I come in to monitor threads like and I see categorical bullsh*t like "mRNA vaccines are experimental gene-therapy". 


You obviously haven't done your homework either. Excuse me, my Toad friend but mRNA vaccines ARE experiential gene therapy injections and absolutely nobody can deny that. 


^Don't tell me I don't do my research. Its part of my job! Constant continuing education courses are required to maintain licensure and specialization certification. And many of those required hours over the last year directly pertained to C19. My specialty is oncology, when all hands on deck aren't fighting a pandemic. How cancer scrambles your DNA, gene expression etc. is key to understanding and treating patients with the disease. Additionally, one of my foci in microbiology was phage transduction (antibiotic resistance transferred between bacterial cells by viruses, called phages, that infect bacteria, directly altering gene expression within host bacteria through transfer of DNA). I'm not going to tout myself as an expert. There are people out there with layer upon layer of degrees and peer-reviewed research in immunology, the vast majority of whom are onboard with current treatment modalities. But saying "You obviously haven't done your homework either" is not just arrogant and dismissive of my own work and requirements, but the entire medical profession.

Plus, you just posted a source that directly contradicts your assertions. 

"2 How does gene therapy work?
...A new gene is inserted directly into a cell...

6 What are mRNA vaccines and how do they work?
...mRNA from vaccines does not enter the nucleus and does not alter DNA..."


Not gene therapy. End of story!
lol your job is not to research its just to learn the lies and propaganda they put in front of you LOL

"The mRNA from the vaccines does not enter the cell nucleus or interact with the DNA at all, so it does not constitute gene therapy."
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Points: 51474 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 11:39
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

According to a 2018 study, people who believe in conspiracy theories tend to show personality traits and characteristics such as:

  • paranoid or suspicious thinking
  • eccentricity
  • low trust in others
  • stronger need to feel special
  • belief in the world as a dangerous place
  • seeing meaningful patterns where none exist

The strongest predictor of belief in conspiracy theories, according to the study, is having a personality that falls into the spectrum of schizotypy.

Schizotypy is a set of personality traits that can range from magical thinking and dissociative states to disorganized thinking patterns and psychosis.

Examples of mental health conditions in the schizotypy spectrum include schizotypal and schizoid personality disorders and schizophrenia.

Not all schizotypy personality traits translate into a personality or psychiatric disorder, though.

Many people have one or two symptoms of schizotypy but don’t qualify for a full diagnosis.

Preliminary research also suggests that belief in conspiracy theories is linked to people’s need for uniqueness. The higher the need to feel special and unique, the more likely a person is to believe a conspiracy theory.

Other personality traits commonly linked to the tendency to believe or follow conspiracy theories include:

These are the people we are arguing against. Confused


I also like this phrase in the abstract: "prone to perceiving agency in actions and profundity in bullsh*t."
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Points: 1396 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 11:27
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Seems to me the practical issue is if hospitals fill up with unvaccinated then it will be harder to get other forms of medical treatment for everyone.


Practical issue? But, but... my freedom. WHAT ABOUT MY FREEDOM??!!!??! ME! ME! ME!

Being an RN in one of said hospitals, I have grown tired of trying to explain this to people. Then they come in with C19 and spend days in the ED because there are no inpatient beds available. Last year most of the time it was the same old song and dance if they survived, "I didn't believe it was so bad, I should have worn my mask, I should have stayed away from people like was suggested". Fast forward one year and you can add the line, "I should have gotten vaccinated". 

In the U.S. there are roughly 920,000 hospital beds, only 72,000 of those are non-specialty ICU beds. That means there are beds for roughly .2-.3% of the population. Keep in mind, at any given time the vast majority of those beds are full of people who have the regular hospital stuff like heart failure, car accidents, cancer, the various failures that go with trying to drink and eating one's self to death, etc. At one point in the winter of 2018 there were 0 available beds on the entire west coast. So the actual number of additional patient's in a disaster or pandemic type scenario needs to be very small to completely overwhelm the US healthcare system. I shudder to think what would have happened in this country if a handful of those bad 'ol politicians hadn't risked political suicide by initiating lockdowns.
 
This is not a die or be OK virus like it is painted in the media. If you develop the full C19 pneumonia (the dreaded "ground-glass opacities" found in acute syndrome workup) you are fairly likely to develop pulmonary fibrosis, which does not just go away. Most will be left with a lifetime of respiratory problems and decreased function. I've seen numbers as high is 72% PF for people recovering from acute C19 pneumonia, we'll see how the next 5 years pans out. People, young people end up with clotting cascades that result in strokes and amputations. CT scans show organs filled with clots requiring anti-coagulant therapy.
 
I come to PA to not have to think about my job and the events of the last 18 months. But no. I come in to monitor threads like and I see categorical bullsh*t like "mRNA vaccines are experimental gene-therapy".  Or my favorite, "What’s happening now is that we’re creating 2nd class citizens and heading towards a totalitarian system"... are you serious with that crap? Take that snowflaky nonsense to whatever sub-Reddit echo chamber will tolerate it.
 
You know who doesn't have freedoms? Somebody who has a f**king tube jammed down their trachea with a machine breathing for them.

I'm sick of this! I'm sick of the malignant individualism and expectation of freedom without responsibility. Flying flags out the back of giant Tonka trucks like that makes you some kind of patriot by default. I'm sick of cherry-picked data and people digging through the web until they find that one "renegade scientist" that confirms their bias. Hey, what the hell, there's a fairly popular fad diet doctor out there who will tell us all that vegetables are killing us. Better gulp down that corporate cheese burger, but don't eat the tomato. Its deadly poison produced by big tomato!  

Angry


For the most part what you composed is a steaming pile of bull crap.  A lot to unravel, so for now I’ll just address your favorite, which coincidentally I wrote.  This issue is extremely important.. 

Or my favorite, "What’s happening now is that we’re creating 2nd class citizens and heading towards a totalitarian system"... are you serious with that crap?

What would you call a societal system that treats a large part of their population as outcasts?  How would you describe those people?  Would you consider them as 2nd class citizens?  Would you label that as discrimination?

I’m assuming you’re at least aware of some of the places that currently require vaccination.  Kids can’t go to school.  A large part of the population will lose their jobs. People are excluded from some pubs and venues.  Biden just ordered tough new vaccination rules for all federal employees. How could anyone not see the trajectory of where this is heading? 

If you’re not vaccinated you may soon not be able to go to a grocery store for food.  Would you be ok with that?

In your honest opinion do you think there should be a mandate for everyone to get vaccinated?  Or just certain individuals such as health care workers?
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Re Cboi Sandlin: You seem to have strong views on medical issues. I was wondering what is your professional job experience in the world of healing and caring for others?
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^ Some theorists sound fairly normal. Others sound bat sh*t crazy. You're intelligent enough to sort them out.

Edited by SteveG - August 01 2021 at 05:40
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@SteveG: Although regarding Covid-19 we may be pretty much in the same "camp", I don't think that branding people with different points of view as pathological will do any good to the discussion. Surely it doesn't serve as an argument against them. I don't even think that the label "conspiracy theory" is very helpful, because surely it is as wrong to claim that there are no conspiracies regarding anything as to believe in some of the more bizarre ones.
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Points: 20616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 04:12

According to a 2018 study, people who believe in conspiracy theories tend to show personality traits and characteristics such as:

  • paranoid or suspicious thinking
  • eccentricity
  • low trust in others
  • stronger need to feel special
  • belief in the world as a dangerous place
  • seeing meaningful patterns where none exist

The strongest predictor of belief in conspiracy theories, according to the study, is having a personality that falls into the spectrum of schizotypy.

Schizotypy is a set of personality traits that can range from magical thinking and dissociative states to disorganized thinking patterns and psychosis.

Examples of mental health conditions in the schizotypy spectrum include schizotypal and schizoid personality disorders and schizophrenia.

Not all schizotypy personality traits translate into a personality or psychiatric disorder, though.

Many people have one or two symptoms of schizotypy but don’t qualify for a full diagnosis.

Preliminary research also suggests that belief in conspiracy theories is linked to people’s need for uniqueness. The higher the need to feel special and unique, the more likely a person is to believe a conspiracy theory.

Other personality traits commonly linked to the tendency to believe or follow conspiracy theories include:

These are the people we are arguing against. Confused



Edited by SteveG - August 01 2021 at 04:15
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Points: 20616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2021 at 04:08
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Can you get Covid if you've been vaccinated twice?
Yes, but you are less likely to become seriously ill and die from it. You are also less likely to be a "Typhoid Mary", spreading to others, be they vaccinated or not.
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Points: 461 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2021 at 20:17
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Seems to me the practical issue is if hospitals fill up with unvaccinated then it will be harder to get other forms of medical treatment for everyone.


Practical issue? But, but... my freedom. WHAT ABOUT MY FREEDOM??!!!??! ME! ME! ME!

 But no. I come in to monitor threads like and I see categorical bullsh*t like "mRNA vaccines are experimental gene-therapy". 


You obviously haven't done your homework either. Excuse me, my Toad friend but mRNA vaccines ARE experiential gene therapy injections and absolutely nobody can deny that. 


^Don't tell me I don't do my research. Its part of my job! Constant continuing education courses are required to maintain licensure and specialization certification. And many of those required hours over the last year directly pertained to C19. My specialty is oncology, when all hands on deck aren't fighting a pandemic. How cancer scrambles your DNA, gene expression etc. is key to understanding and treating patients with the disease. Additionally, one of my foci in microbiology was phage transduction (antibiotic resistance transferred between bacterial cells by viruses, called phages, that infect bacteria, directly altering gene expression within host bacteria through transfer of DNA). I'm not going to tout myself as an expert. There are people out there with layer upon layer of degrees and peer-reviewed research in immunology, the vast majority of whom are onboard with current treatment modalities. But saying "You obviously haven't done your homework either" is not just arrogant and dismissive of my own work and requirements, but the entire medical profession.

Plus, you just posted a source that directly contradicts your assertions. 

"2 How does gene therapy work?
...A new gene is inserted directly into a cell...

6 What are mRNA vaccines and how do they work?
...mRNA from vaccines does not enter the nucleus and does not alter DNA..."


Not gene therapy. End of story!
lol your job is not to research its just to learn the lies and propaganda they put in front of you LOL
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