Should the Beach Boys be considered Proto?

Dean wrote: <span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"> SteveG wrote: I haven't actually heard the song Good Vibrations in many years, except for the occasional edit here and there. I think the song had a variation on the standard pop song verse, chorus, versus and final chorus formula which probably made it sound more proggy. That, and it's ornate instrumentation, is what probably sets off the Prog trigger in some people. </span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"> Dean. </span><span style=font-size: 11px; line-height: 13.1999998092651px; : rgb248, 248, 252;>15 September 2014 at 19:49</span><span style=line-height: 14.3999996185303px;> wrote: </span><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">'Good Vibrations' is unconventional in structure [chorus, verse 1, chorus, interlude, verse 2, chorus, coda]</span><span style="line-height: 1.2;"> </span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">But that <span style="line-height: 1.2;">isn't a huge departure from the more conventional [</span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">verse 1, chorus, verse 2, chorus, bridge/interlude, chorus, coda], ie (it's still verse-chorus) and is nothing like the complete disregard for verse-chorus structure that Prog is known for. </span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 1.2;">Compare GV with She Loves You [</span>chorus, verse 1, bridge, verse 2, bridge, chorus, verse 3, bridge, chorus, coda] ... no one is calling that a Prog trigger.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 1.2;">Now consider TNK from Revolver: [</span>intro, verse 1, verse 2, verse 3, bridge, verse 4, verse 5, verse 6, verse 7, coda] ... isn't that closer to Prog than anything the Beach Boys did?

I have to agree with Dean here, even if he feels like my annoying little brother

SteveG wrote: Should the Beach Boys be considered Proto Prog because of Brian Wilson's employment of suite like movements and sophisticated lush musical arrangements for Pet Sounds?

Not necessary SteveG
I don't think they were original enough in their music or sound to classify them as the above.

The melody of The Beach Boys’ classic ‘Surfin’ USA’ is almost identical to the melody of Chuck’s 1958 classic ‘Sweet Little Sixteen’. They sounded so alike in fact that The Beach Boys had to give Berry co-writing credit in order to avoid a lawsuit. A profitable experience in the end for Mr. Berry.

We hear Beatles influence in The beach boys however the Beatles and many of the Band's influences were American in origin. Chuck Berry was perhaps the most fundamental progenitor of the Beatles' sound. They recorded covers of "Roll Over Beethoven" and "Rock And Roll Music" early on and many other Berry classics were in their live repertoire. Chuck Berry's influence is also heard (in altered form) on later recordings such as "Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey" (1968) and "Come Together" (1969) (when "Come Together" from Abbey Road was released, the owner of Chuck Berry's copyrights sued John Lennon for copyright infringement of his song "You Can't Catch Me", after which the two reached an amicable settlement, the terms of which included an agreement that Lennon cover some Chuck Berry songs as a solo artist).

Also copied as follows from wiki: In 1973, "Come Together" was the subject of a lawsuit brought against Lennon by Big Seven Music Corp. (owned by Morris Levy) who was the publisher of Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me". Levy contended that it sounded similar musically to Berry's original and shared some lyrics (Lennon sang "Here come ol' flattop, he come groovin' up slowly" and Berry's had sung "Here come a flattop, he was movin' up with me"). Before recording, Lennon and McCartney deliberately slowed the song down and added a heavy bass riff in order to make the song more original.[14] After settling out of court, Lennon promised to record three other songs owned by Levy.[15] A primitive version of "Ya Ya" with Lennon and his son Julian was released on the album Walls and Bridges in 1974. "You Can't Catch Me" and another version of "Ya Ya" were released on Lennon's 1975 album Rock 'n' Roll, but the third, "Angel Baby", remained unreleased until after Lennon's death. Levy again sued Lennon for breach of contract, and was eventually awarded $6,795. Lennon countersued after Levy released an album of Lennon material using tapes that were in his possession and was eventually awarded $84,912.96. The album was called Roots.

Hugs

I haven't actually heard the song Good Vibrations in many years, except for the occasional edit here and there. I think the song had a variation on the standard pop song verse, chorus, versus and final chorus formula which probably made it sound more proggy. That, and it's ornate instrumentation, is what probably sets off the Prog trigger in some people.

Edited by SteveG - September 22 2014 at 13:43

earlyprog wrote: SteveG wrote: Does Proto Prog equal Prog? If so, why not just call it Prog then? "let there be prog and there was prog" ? No, prog evolved gradually from progressive pop (and other non-rock genres) (Beach Boys?) over various proto prog genres (from sections of songs over song length to album length) to symphonic prog (ELP) etc. (Edit: other branches led to the development of proto prog. For instance, fusion of genres.)

I get the impression that some members don't like to openly admit  this. Actually it's just the way elements of Prog developed and part of the music progression.

SteveG wrote: Does Proto Prog equal Prog? If so, why not just call it Prog then?

Edited by earlyprog - September 22 2014 at 10:44

No [one] said that Proto Prog equals Prog. There is nothing to expand upon.

Edited by Dean - September 22 2014 at 10:26

earlyprog wrote:   Ha, ha  How can you claim PA's contribution to the list with all the omissions? Do yourself and the rest of us a favor and use the

Just for fun:

The combined PA/Rockprog/Sventonio Proto prog list, in no particular order, 1960's albums:

Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations (single), The Beach Boys

Revolver, The Beatles

Sgt. Pepper's, The Beatles

Magical Mystery Tour, The Beatles

Piper At the Gates of Dawn, Pink Floyd

Feakout!, Frank Zappa

Music In a Dolls House, Family

Are you Experienced?, Jimi Hendrix

Children Of The Future, Steve Miller Band

We're Only In it For the Money, Frank Zappa

The Doors, The Doors

Sailor, Steve Miller Band

Days of Future Past: The Moody Blues

Abbey Road, The Beatles

Surrealistic Pillow, Jefferson Airplane

Ars Longa Vita Brevis, The Nice

Tommy, The Who

Renaissance, Vanilla Fudge

In the Court of The Crimson King, King Crimson

This list has been compiled for entertainment purposes only. (but sensitive persons should keep Smelling Salts handy in cause of fainting)

Edited by SteveG - September 20 2014 at 10:31

Atavachron wrote: It's not a bad list but it does seem rather unedified

The author of that list showed a considerable dose of ignorance or even stupidity.
ELP's debut - prog roots? lol



Edited by Svetonio - September 19 2014 at 08:23

Dean wrote: Aye, it's not a bad list by any stretch, it's just a little too selective, short of being definitive and far from being balanced to be be anything other than one man's opinion. I don't see that there is any need to pick-over it further, we can all suggest other bands and albums that we'd expect to see on it and some we'd prefer to see in place of some already listed.

Honestly, even I feel it's a narrow list, but it's a least a chance to see how other prog sites see the development of the early part of the genre. And that does not mean that they are always correct, just different.


Edited by SteveG - September 19 2014 at 08:14