Is King Crimson really Eclectic Prog? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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TheGazzardian View Drop Down

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:12

In my mind, King Crimson are pretty much the de-facto Eclectic prog band, having evolved so heavily over the course of their career that if you were to pick out Court, Lizard, Red, Discipline and, Power, you could be convinced that they were five different bands.

verslibre

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 14:10

Fripp was going for a "metallic" sound on Red, too!

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The.Crimson.King View Drop Down

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 13:45

ITCOTCK -> Islands : Symphonic Prog

Larks Tongues -> USA : Heavy Prog

Discipline - ToaPP : Post Rock/Math Rock

THRAK -> The Power to Believe : Experimental/Post Metal

...seems pretty eclectic to me LOL

Edited by The.Crimson.King - November 17 2013 at 13:46

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proggman

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 11:33

Is King Crimson really Eclectic Prog? Yes, good now we agree.

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Wanorak

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 11:19

I agree totally with what Lazland said!

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refugee

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 11:15

Eclectic is, I think, the right place to put them, since the word means:

1. Selecting or employing individual elements from a variety of sources, systems, or styles
2. Made up of or combining elements from a variety of sources

That seems to be true, also after Discipline. Rock, jazz, classical, you name it.

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dr wu23

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 10:49

That's an interesting question......there are many bands here that I disagree with the way they are classified.

I see the first two KC as more symphonic prog based on the songs on them but the later things are certainly eclectic and also heavy prog.

I have been fooled a few times after reading reviews and classifications when I bought an album based on these labels..but I still liked the bands so it didn't really matter how they were classified in the end.

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Dean

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 09:20

Even more random thoughts:

How, where and why we put put a band is not an exact science.

We aim for best fit rather than exact fit.

Sometimes we try to put them where you would expect to find them rather than where they would logically, scientifically, musicologically and rationally be placed.

Where one person expects to find them may not necessarily agree with where someone else expects to find them.

If there is conflicting opinion then we tend to use the criteria of the subgenre that best fits their most recognisable(progressive) albums, or the subgenre that they were first associated with, or the subgenre they are most often associated with, or the subgenre that they were most influential in, or the subgenre that they are most popular in.

The most recognisable albums does not necessarily mean their most popular or their best albums.

These criteria are not mutually exclusive, nor are they objective.

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Guldbamsen View Drop Down

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 08:59

Dean wrote:

Evolution over time does not necessarily mean each successive album has to progress or change, time scales and events are undefined and not delineated by physical boundaries (ie albums).

Eclectic does not mean different: If A is eclectic and B is similar to A then B is also eclectic. This distinction holds true for progressive too.

Together A and B can be used to define a (new) style if those similarities are different from the eclectic gamut of styles that produced it or from any preexisting defined style.

Style is defined as being similar and unchanged, a plurality of style(s) is by definition eclectic.

Lacking a referential core denotes that the eclectic nature does not favour one particular style over another.

Being mostly X with an influence of Y is eclectic as an adjective but remains stylistically defined as X (ie not as a noun).

When no dominant style pervades we can call that resulting style (X dot Y) eclectic as an adjective and as a noun.

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Stool Man

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 08:55

Maybe KC used to be eclectic, and then they changed

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Manuel

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 08:31

I think sometimes we stick a label and it remains forever, so King Crimson got the "Eclectic" label, even though their music changed considerably. Same would be for Jethro Tull being a Prog Folk band, when most of their catalog would not fall under that category, or Santana being Jazz-Fusion, etc.

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 08:01

Dean wrote:

Guldbamsen wrote:

The only band that i personally find more befitting of the 'eclectic' badge is Pink Floyd.

I agree. However, my DSotM T-Shirt back print says "Still First In Space"

Nice shirt and what a patina Big smile

I used to own a 'More' shirt that went pink one day after a meeting with one of my newly acquired red socks. Both good and bad though, because while I initially cursed this ruining of my most treasured upper torso garment, it also rendered me with an entirely unique t-shirt that nobody else had. Plus the pink and orange colours really complimented each other in a most psychedelic manner.

I actually think Floyd fits perfectly in psych/space. Hell even on Division Bell you'll find some of the same astronaut leanings in the music. There was always a psychedelic tinge to Floyd, be that in the guitars or the synths. Anyway that's just my take on it - even if I genuinely believe that there never was a more "eclectic" rock band ever.

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Dean

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 07:57

Stool Man wrote:

I don't consider Pink Floyd to be Psychedelic or Space Rock for the last forty years, nor me but I'm not bothered about it, nor me. ABITW2 was a disco hit, you want them to be classed as disco? yeah, let's go for it!

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Stool Man

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 07:19

I don't consider Pink Floyd to be Psychedelic or Space Rock for the last forty years, but I'm not bothered about it. ABITW2 was a disco hit, you want them to be classed as disco?

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Dean

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 06:44

Guldbamsen wrote:

The only band that i personally find more befitting of the 'eclectic' badge is Pink Floyd.

I agree. However, my DSotM T-Shirt back print says "Still First In Space"

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Dean

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 06:37

ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

^^^ Of course you would say all of that. Yes I have heard Discipline and I bet you can agree that Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair sound similar? Meaning that the eclecticism is limited. Let me bring about the PA definition of this "subgenre":

Eclectic Prog combines hybrids of style and diversity of theme, promoting many elements from different sources. The Eclectic category recognizes bands that evolved markedly over their career (in a progressive, evolutionary way), or have a plural style without a clear referential core.

I honestly don't hear a difference between anything from Discipline- TOAPP. Same goes for Thrak-TPTB

Well it is true that they have "evolved" but so many other bands have too

More random thoughts:

That's not what eclecticism means.

Evolution over time does not necessarily mean each successive album has to progress or change, time scales and events are undefined and not delineated by physical boundaries (ie albums).

Eclectic does not mean different: If A is eclectic and B is similar to A then B is also eclectic. This distinction holds true for progressive too.

Together A and B can be used to define a (new) style if those similarities are different from the eclectic gamut of styles that produced it or from any preexisting defined style.

Style is defined as being similar and unchanged, a plurality of style(s) is by definition eclectic.

Lacking a referential core denotes that the eclectic nature does not favour one particular style over another.

Being mostly X with an influence of Y is eclectic as an adjective but remains stylistically defined as X (ie not as a noun).

When no dominant style pervades we can call that resulting style (X dot Y) eclectic as an adjective and as a noun.

What?

Earthmover View Drop Down

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 06:20

you can't expect an artist to radically change their sound after every album

forcing change wouldn't lead to good

WeepingElf View Drop Down

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 05:57

What is "eclectic prog"? Eclecticism is quite common in progressive rock, and has been since the beginning.

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Neo-Romantic View Drop Down

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 05:50

Instead of thinking of the differences, or lack thereof, between Discipline, Beat, and Three of a Perfect Pair, consider instead the differences between Lizard, Red, Discipline, and The Power to Believe. Each presents a unique blending of influences and styles and demonstrates a long-term evolution that seems to fit the PA definition quoted in your post.

Edited by Neo-Romantic - November 17 2013 at 05:51

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

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Posted: November 17 2013 at 05:49

Ok then - we hear things differently. Not a big deal. I do however suspect that you'll be in the minority on this one.

The eclectic moniker also very aptly describes KC's development over the years. There's a big difference between the two periods I was on about. The jump from the three 80s albums to the gritty hard hitting albums of Vrooom and Thrak, is undeniably Crimsonesque. While there are distinct similarities to be found, those are still far and between. They practically sounded like a brand new band.

The only band that i personally find more befitting of the 'eclectic' badge is Pink Floyd.

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams