The UFO Phenomenon |
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20642 |
Posted: June 30 2014 at 10:26 |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: June 30 2014 at 04:13 |
I have attempted to explain this before, but it is worth repeating. This means that signals from astronomical distances have to be phenomenally powerful at their point of origin for us to be able to detect them. Weak signals, and even powerful ones from distant stars, are lost in the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation, even to the most sensitive radio receivers we can build - no amount of signal processing can recover those signals. If you consider the amount of EM radiation emitted by a star of the same magnitude as our Sun is in the order of 384.6 yotta watts (3.846×10^26 W) then radio signals at interstellar distances would need to [be] of similar power levels for us to detect them. The Andromeda Galaxy has 1 trillion stars and that appears as a faint smudge to the naked eye - such is the effect of the Inverse Square Law.
Edited by Dean - June 30 2014 at 04:42 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: June 30 2014 at 03:32 |
SETI isn't looking close-range (even they realise there is little point in doing that). If there were aliens near Earth emitting electro-magnetic radiation of any kind we would have readily detected it somewhere in the EM spectrum without even looking for it.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65417 |
Posted: June 30 2014 at 02:58 |
if there were alien ships or probes near Earth, wouldn't they give off some kind of signal that SETI would pick up ? (I assume it ignores satellite transmissions)
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: June 30 2014 at 02:52 |
Last time I checked SETI received a lot more positive attention from the scientific community than ufology, perhaps for the reason that a lot of ufology is more religious or folkloric in character than scientific. I've already mentioned the continuity between Theosophy and the UFO contactee movement, then of course there's the alien abduction mythology's similarity to historical demonology or pre-Disneyfication faerie changeling stories.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20642 |
Posted: June 29 2014 at 14:35 |
I doubt if those who don't take the ufo phenom seriously on any level think much of SETI either.
But then Seth Shostak who was the main SETI man doesn't think much of the ufo phenom. But Michu Kaku does think aliens are out there and may have been here....go figure.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20642 |
Posted: June 29 2014 at 14:27 |
Edited by dr wu23 - June 29 2014 at 14:28 |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: June 29 2014 at 01:31 |
Maybe I should start a second thread for SETI? (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) I gotta wonder if the association with UFOlogy does not exactly give that endeavour a most serious image... though it might kind of endear SETI to the general public.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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weetabix
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 20 2008 Status: Offline Points: 170 |
Posted: June 29 2014 at 01:27 |
There is no Bigfoot, Zombies, or Flying Saucers and no illegal Kenyan president of the US.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: June 28 2014 at 18:23 |
*sigh*
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: June 28 2014 at 16:29 |
One step closer to finding extraterrestrial life? Not quite, but still... meanwhile, the philosophical blogger Scott Alexander ponders why we haven't encountered any alien civilization yet. He doesn't really find any satisfactory answer, though as usual the comments section is worth reading since for reasons I don't quite grasp that particular blog attracts some very strange if always erudite commenters. I know SETI technically isn't the same thing as ufology but there's a bit of overlap in field of interest and the two are certainly relevant to each other.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: June 21 2014 at 11:28 |
Finally got around to seeing that UFO contactee documentary. Interesting how much interest the authorities showed, and I liked the way it showed the interaction between the alien contact movement and the local communities. Of course, many of their claims are difficult to verify and I've read critical analyses of the photos shown as likely hoaxes... but it's interesting to see how obvious the religious undertones in UFO culture were back then. Like the missing link between Theosophy and the New Age movement.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: June 19 2014 at 12:26 |
Don't have time to watch that right now, but thanks for the link. I might watch it in the weekend.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20642 |
Posted: June 18 2014 at 17:27 |
Toaster.......you might find this interesting. A 5 part you tube doc on the original 1950's contactees.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20642 |
Posted: June 18 2014 at 17:20 |
I believe the original conventions were started by George van Tassel...a self proclaimed contactee.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: June 18 2014 at 04:22 |
Here's a cornucopia of photos from 1950s ufological convention. Interesting for the documentary insight into what the UFO contactee subculture was like back then. I also remember seeing some photos of country musician Gram Parsons at a similar gathering of ufologists in an old interview with him, might have been the same organization and place a decade later.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 18 2014 at 06:17 |
I still struggle to see what SETI is actually looking for when it comes to detecting "Intelligence" at cosmic distances. But hey-ho, they do valid work in detecting exoplanets so I guess they can keep the "I" in SETI. The detection of exoplanets is by passive (ie non-intelligent) perturbation of the star these planets orbit. We can directly observe some exoplanets but at present we can only see massive gas-giants that are orbiting at some distance from the host star. Either way none of these can, or ever will, give any indication of life on those exoplanets, let alone intelligent life. We know from observations of Mars that occupying the circumstellar habital zone (CMZ) does not automatically mean that water does exist in liquid form on those exoplanets. It is current speculated that Mars has always been too cold for liquid water because its atmosphere has never been thick enough to support it. Similarly, being of Earth-size within the CMZ is also no guarantee that liquid water could exist on the surface, even if it has an atmosphere thick enough for the greenhouse effect to partially regulate surface temperatures between 0°C and 100°C, it also needs a hot liquid core to help regulate surface temperatures and an intrinsic magnetosphere to protect the atmosphere and planet surface. Mars has neither of those for example where as Venus may have a liquid core but since it has an induced magnetosphere it is unlikely. We know that Venus is just fractionally outside the CMZ of our solar system, an observer on Kepler-186f using the transit-effect to observe Venus to the same accuracy that we can observe variations in the brightness of Kepler-186 by the transit of Kepler-186f would speculate that Venus is within the CMZ. Of course that does not mean that Kepler-186f is not habitable, it could be, it's unlikely, but it could be so we can always speculate. Even though direct observation of the only other known CMZ planet within our solar system is gradually moving away from the idea that life could have existed on Mars, we will still get headline-grabbing observations of strange lights and unusually landscape structures in those observations that will spark a wave of speculation that will result in fascinating yet mundane explanations. Again, I find these mundane explanations far more interesting than the speculative theories they generate.
Edited by Dean - April 18 2014 at 06:18 |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65417 |
Posted: April 18 2014 at 05:32 |
a Class M planet, evidently
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: April 18 2014 at 04:50 |
In more serious notes related to the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, for the first time the existence of an Earth-like planet in another solar system has been confirmed. Of course, from being able to support life to actually having intelligent life let alone the kind of industrial civilization necessary for space travel is quite the stretch already.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 18 2014 at 04:37 |
This is the most fascinating aspect of all for me. Flights of fancy and wild speculations are all very entertaining but the analytical and deductive reasoning that assesses the available information and observes correlations in that evidence to produce a plausible and rational explanation that can be verified by further observation and experimentation is the essence of all human discovery. Without this we would still marvel at the Sun-god being carried across the sky by a fiery chariot every day. ...of course "Firework creates perfect smoke-ring" would not have been a news-worthy story.
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