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dtguitarfan 
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 Posted: September 20 2012 at 09:30 |
 thellama73 wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
I'm saying that in my opinion all reviewers can really do is measure their own enjoyment and guess what other people's enjoyment will be. |
So you don't think the word "essential" has any meaning distinct from "enjoyable?"
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I don't think I, or anyone else for that matter, can truly decide if an album is essential. I can only guess at it, and the only way I think that I can make that call is to measure my own enjoyment and guess at what other people's enjoyment will be.
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thellama73
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 09:28 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
I'm saying that in my opinion all reviewers can really do is measure their own enjoyment and guess what other people's enjoyment will be. |
So you don't think the word "essential" has any meaning distinct from "enjoyable?"
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dtguitarfan
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 09:23 |
thellama73 wrote:
You keep complaining that my criteria (which are not hard and fast by any means) are subjective, but I never claimed otherwise. Of course they are subjective, that's why we have reviews and not scientific reports on an album's quality. But that doesn't mean that it all boils down to enjoyment either.
If you believe a new album is so effective, so innovative and so technically excellent as to qualify as a an essential masterpiece of progressive music, then by all means rate it five stars. I did with Sleepytime Gorilla Museum's "Of Natural History" and I stand by that rating. But don't haphazardly award five star ratings to every new album by a band you like.
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I'm not complaining, I'm saying that in my opinion all reviewers can really do is measure their own enjoyment and guess what other people's enjoyment will be. And I think that if reviewers were more honest about that, there would be less hurt feelings. Because it hurts less to say "well, I really didn't enjoy this but it's ok if you do" than to say "this is utter rubbish and anyone who does not agree is stupid."
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thellama73
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 09:06 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
To reply to all that thellama73 just said - I think I've made my point already, but just think about your replies. How do you know what the general consensus of quality is? Are you saying you can't ever give out a 5 star unless you've seen 100 other people give a 5 star to the album? EDIT: And if so, that's not very fair to new albums - what happens when you're specifically asked to review an album that hasn't even been release to the public? Are you going to say that there's no way you could ever go higher than...oh, say a 3?
And how do you know what "groundbreaking" is? What you think is groundbreaking may not be considered groundbreaking by others, and what they consider groundbreaking may not be considered groundbreaking to you....
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You keep complaining that my criteria (which are not hard and fast by any means) are subjective, but I never claimed otherwise. Of course they are subjective, that's why we have reviews and not scientific reports on an album's quality. But that doesn't mean that it all boils down to enjoyment either. If you believe a new album is so effective, so innovative and so technically excellent as to qualify as a an essential masterpiece of progressive music, then by all means rate it five stars. I did with Sleepytime Gorilla Museum's "Of Natural History" and I stand by that rating. But don't haphazardly award five star ratings to every new album by a band you like.
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dtguitarfan
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 08:51 |
To reply to all that thellama73 just said - I think I've made my point already, but just think about your replies. How do you know what the general consensus of quality is? Are you saying you can't ever give out a 5 star unless you've seen 100 other people give a 5 star to the album? EDIT: And if so, that's not very fair to new albums - what happens when you're specifically asked to review an album that hasn't even been release to the public? Are you going to say that there's no way you could ever go higher than...oh, say a 3?
And how do you know what "groundbreaking" is? What you think is groundbreaking may not be considered groundbreaking by others, and what they consider groundbreaking may not be considered groundbreaking to you....
Believe me, I've thought about this, and concluded that in the end the only truly honest thing I can do is say "I enjoyed this/I did not enjoy this, and think others will too and that's why I'm giving this rating out." And back to the review I did not post on MMA, I did not do this for that very reason, because I'm assuming that the average metal lover will not give the Beardfish album 5 stars and because my review specifically was written to support my conclusion of 5 stars, it makes no sense to put that one up on MMA and would need some slight rewriting of some sort. But that's an assumption! 20 years down the road, I could possibly hear people calling that album one of the masterpieces of metal, I don't know! All I can do is state my own enjoyment and what my assumption of other's enjoyment will be and rate accordingly.
Edited by dtguitarfan - September 20 2012 at 08:56
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thellama73
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 08:42 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Also, as to thellama73's #2 point, everyone around here (and everywhere) seems to disagree on what is and is not progressive anyways.... |
To a degree, yes, but there is broad agreement that, for example, Yes is progressive and Johnny Cash is not. In any case, that's what the review is for, asserting one's opinion on this and other factors.
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thellama73
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 08:40 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
The quality of being essential implies a few things:
1. That the album is generally considered to be good.
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AHA! AHA!!!!!! So you admit that you are assuming what other's enjoyment is/will be!!!!!! FOR THE WIN!!!
 
No, that's not what I said. I was referring to general consensus that the album has quality. This assumes nothing about the individual enjoyment of the person reading the review.
thellama73 wrote:
3. That it is historically important in that it covered new territory or was influential to other bands.Granted, all of these are somewhat subjective, but they consist of more than simple enjoyment. |
Soooo...you can't ever give anything 5 stars unless it's at least 10 years old? I think that's ridiculous, myself. Or, maybe you are trying to predict the future historical significance, which is impossible. |
No, you'll note that I also included "groundbreaking" as a criterion, which has nothing to do with age. There is such a thing as a modern classic.
I should note that I also think an album can be essential without being very good (although it wouldn't be a masterpiece and therefore not worthy of five stars) Dream Theater's albums are certainly essential to a prog metal collection because of their importance to the genre, just as the Ramones are essential to a punk collection. The fact that I do not particularly enjoy either band does not make them less essential.
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dtguitarfan
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 08:34 |
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Also, as to thellama73's #2 point, everyone around here (and everywhere) seems to disagree on what is and is not progressive anyways....
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dtguitarfan
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 08:33 |
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thellama73
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 08:22 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
They are not assumptions, they are explicit statements in the review guidelines.
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I'm saying that when you rate an album that is one of your favorites lower than a 5 based on the guidelines, that what you are essentially doing is making assumptions on what other people's enjoyment will be based on certain musical factors you are analyzing. |
I don't agree with you, because the star rating is not just about enjoyment. A three star rating is not a signal that "you will will not enjoy this that much" it is saying "this album is good and you may absolutely love it, but it is not essential."Essentiality and enjoyment are not the same thing, and the former can be based on somewhat more objective criteria than the latter. |
How do you know what's essential to me or anyone else but yourself? |
The quality of being essential implies a few things: 1. That the album is generally considered to be good. 2. That it fits stylistically into the relevant genre (i.e. in order to be essential to progressive music collection, it must be progressive) 3. That it is historically important in that it covered new territory or was influential to other bands. Granted, all of these are somewhat subjective, but they consist of more than simple enjoyment.
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dtguitarfan
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 08:15 |
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thellama73
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 08:01 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
They are not assumptions, they are explicit statements in the review guidelines.
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I'm saying that when you rate an album that is one of your favorites lower than a 5 based on the guidelines, that what you are essentially doing is making assumptions on what other people's enjoyment will be based on certain musical factors you are analyzing.
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I don't agree with you, because the star rating is not just about enjoyment. A three star rating is not a signal that "you will will not enjoy this that much" it is saying "this album is good and you may absolutely love it, but it is not essential." Essentiality and enjoyment are not the same thing, and the former can be based on somewhat more objective criteria than the latter.
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dtguitarfan
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 07:56 |
thellama73 wrote:
They are not assumptions, they are explicit statements in the review guidelines.
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I'm saying that when you rate an album that is one of your favorites lower than a 5 based on the guidelines, that what you are essentially doing is making assumptions on what other people's enjoyment will be based on certain musical factors you are analyzing.
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thellama73
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 07:46 |
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They are not assumptions, they are explicit statements in the review guidelines.
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dtguitarfan
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 07:43 |
thellama73 wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Bear in mind that the ratings system is not "how much did you enjoy this album on a scale of one to five?"
Each star value has a statement to go along with it. So I could massively enjoy an album and still not think it is a quintessential masterpiece of progressive music. A lot of the albums I enjoy most I would only recommend for die hard fans, and as such would rate as either two or three stars.
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But think about that - just because you say an album is a necessary addition to every prog lover's collection doesn't mean people agree with you. So what are you backing that statement up with? To me, it seems the only sensible way to back up this statement is just to be honest and say "well, I really really enjoyed this and that's why" because I think that's the only measurement I can truly provide.
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Let me give an example. One of my favorite albums ever is the Million Dollar Quartet sessions with Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins and (allegedly) Johnny Cash. It's not on this site, but if it were, I could not in good conscience give it five stars because it's not progressive and you have to be a fan of rockabilly, gospel and country to like it, as well as someone who doesn't mind the looseness of the live in studio, improvisatory format.
It would be wrong to call such a record an essential masterpiece of progressive music, becasue it's not.
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Aha but think about that! What are you really doing there? You're guessing at what other people's enjoyment will be based on the assumption that what they are looking for is certain musical factors...so it's still just a measure of (assumed) enjoyment.... I do know what you're talking about. The Beardfish review I just wrote, I did not post up on the Metal Music Archives, because the whole review is about why I gave it 5 stars and I don't feel right giving the album 5 stars on MMA. But as I said, it's because I'm assuming on what other people's enjoyment will or will not be based on certain assumptions that those who are on the site are seeking certain musical factors.
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thellama73
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 07:38 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Bear in mind that the ratings system is not "how much did you enjoy this album on a scale of one to five?"
Each star value has a statement to go along with it. So I could massively enjoy an album and still not think it is a quintessential masterpiece of progressive music. A lot of the albums I enjoy most I would only recommend for die hard fans, and as such would rate as either two or three stars.
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But think about that - just because you say an album is a necessary addition to every prog lover's collection doesn't mean people agree with you. So what are you backing that statement up with? To me, it seems the only sensible way to back up this statement is just to be honest and say "well, I really really enjoyed this and that's why" because I think that's the only measurement I can truly provide.
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Let me give an example. One of my favorite albums ever is the Million Dollar Quartet sessions with Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins and (allegedly) Johnny Cash. It's not on this site, but if it were, I could not in good conscience give it five stars because it's not progressive and you have to be a fan of rockabilly, gospel and country to like it, as well as someone who doesn't mind the looseness of the live in studio, improvisatory format. It would be wrong to call such a record an essential masterpiece of progressive music, becasue it's not.
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dtguitarfan
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 07:31 |
thellama73 wrote:
Bear in mind that the ratings system is not "how much did you enjoy this album on a scale of one to five?"
Each star value has a statement to go along with it. So I could massively enjoy an album and still not think it is a quintessential masterpiece of progressive music. A lot of the albums I enjoy most I would only recommend for die hard fans, and as such would rate as either two or three stars.
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But think about that - just because you say an album is a necessary addition to every prog lover's collection doesn't mean people agree with you. So what are you backing that statement up with? To me, it seems the only sensible way to back up this statement is just to be honest and say "well, I really really enjoyed this and that's why" because I think that's the only measurement I can truly provide.
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thellama73
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 07:24 |
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Bear in mind that the ratings system is not "how much did you enjoy this album on a scale of one to five?"
Each star value has a statement to go along with it. So I could massively enjoy an album and still not think it is a quintessential masterpiece of progressive music. A lot of the albums I enjoy most I would only recommend for die hard fans, and as such would rate as either two or three stars.
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dtguitarfan
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 07:05 |
Snow Dog wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Enjoying an album is not enough to give it five stars.
Most of the albums I enjoy are not 5 stars.
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Sorry, but that's crap. The only measurement anyone can truly give of an album is their own personal enjoyment. It's art - you can't objectively say "this is better than that because...", you can only say "I enjoyed it sooooo much, so I'm giving it this many stars." That's the only truthful way to go about it, the way I see it. Now, it may be that you are a very technical person, and so your enjoyment comes from paying attention and hearing technical things going on and thus you can say "I enjoyed this so much because I heard them doing this and that" but it's still just a measure of your own personal enjoyment. You can't pretend to tell people that your measurement of an album's greatness is the only true measurement.
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A review comes with a certain responsibility. Just because you enjoy an album that hardly makes it worthy of 5 stars. As Rob said. There are many, many albums I enjoy without a 5 star rating. There are albums I enjoy that I would rate 2 or 3 stars for this site. |
Sure, there is responsibility to analyze WHY you enjoyed that album, but in the end that's all you can do. The only thing a reviewer can really, honestly do is say "this is 5 stars because I enjoyed it so much, and this is why." You simply can't say "this is 5 stars because it's factually the best." That's impossible to back up and a load of crap. Now, YES, it is possible that the reason a certain reviewer loves music is because he is analyzing musical factors that are present or not present and enjoys the music that has the more difficult, more unusual things present. But it's still just a measure of your enjoyment. When I use the Prog Archives' guidelines and say "this is an album that every prog lover should own", the ONLY thing I (or anyone) can back this statement up with is the measure of my own enjoyment.
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Snow Dog
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 07:00 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Enjoying an album is not enough to give it five stars.
Most of the albums I enjoy are not 5 stars.
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Sorry, but that's crap. The only measurement anyone can truly give of an album is their own personal enjoyment. It's art - you can't objectively say "this is better than that because...", you can only say "I enjoyed it sooooo much, so I'm giving it this many stars." That's the only truthful way to go about it, the way I see it. Now, it may be that you are a very technical person, and so your enjoyment comes from paying attention and hearing technical things going on and thus you can say "I enjoyed this so much because I heard them doing this and that" but it's still just a measure of your own personal enjoyment. You can't pretend to tell people that your measurement of an album's greatness is the only true measurement.
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A review comes with a certain responsibility. Just because you enjoy an album that hardly makes it worthy of 5 stars. As Rob said. There are many, many albums I enjoy without a 5 star rating. There are albums I enjoy that I would rate 2 or 3 stars for this site.
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