Re:London Underground

Mark:

Let me go out on a very thin limb here...

As you probably know, Mohatma Gandhi taught non-violent civil disobedience as the best, most moral way to effect socio-political change.  And we know it works, of course, since neither Gandhi nor his followers fired one shot or beat a single person in effecting the change-over of India from British to home rule.

After WWII, Gandhi made an amazing - and very controversial - statement, one that most people find extremely difficult to understand, much less believe.  When asked about fighting Hitler, Gandhi suggested that the Polish people should simply have "laid down their arms and laid in front of the tanks."  He realized, of course, that the Germans might just ignore such a unified, national display of non-violence, and simply crush every Pole in the country.

However, that was exactly his point.  He understood that tyrants, dictators and despots were not seeking "real estate," but "people to subjugate and control."  In Gandhi's eyes, if the Poles had done this, the Germans might well have taken over Poland, but they would not have anyone over whom to exert control and power.  In other words, tyrants etc. are not out for "land grabs," but for "people grabs."  A tyrant or dictator is useless if he has no one to rule.

The same could be said for "faith-based" terrorists, and both the fundamentalist religious leaders and the self-appointed "political" leaders like bin Laden.  The terrorists may well "just keep on coming."  But unless they have people over whom they can exert power, control and influence, they are "toothless."  Yes, they can cause incredible damage and loss of life.  However, their greatest "success" is in how their actions "catalyze" changes in the governments they disagree with (or hate), since that is a small, but effective, example of "exerting influence" (and even a small degree of control) over those governments.

In this regard, each time a goverment allows itself to "cave in" to terrorism by changing even one iota of what that government stands for - e.g., free speech, free movement, free press, etc. - the terrorists "win."  In this regard, and without being callous or disrespectful of the families and friends of those who died on 9/11, one could argue that 9/11 was an incredible success for bin Laden & Co. (assuming they were involved: but that's another thread...) - indeed, they must be toasting each other as they watch how Bush & Co. unravel the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and erode and curtail many of our hard-won freedoms and civil liberties, all in the name of an illusory "security."

Peace.

The Doctor wrote: Tony R wrote: The Doctor wrote: Hey I'm not really all that fond of the religious nuts in this country either.  I really don't have much respect for most organized religions, Christianity included.  On the other hand, I haven't heard of Christian suicide bombers killing innocent people on their way to work.  So fundamentalist Christians would be the second group to go. What about Christian Bomber Crews?  Stop the ignorant posts. This is people killing people.Religion is just an excuse.   Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder Tony.  I'm sure not everyone on these boards shares what seems to be an ultra-left anti-western attitude.  They just apparently aren't as vocal as I am.  Ignorance to me is continuing to try to apologize for and placate those who commit these horrible atrocities, while at the same time blaming the victims (or the countries of the victims) for the acts of these animals masquerading as humans.  Hopefully, these ultra-left, anti-western attitudes will not hold sway with the majority of the people or with our elected officials or pretty soon, we will all be praising allah.  Not because we believe in it, but because we are forced to. However, I can see that I am in a minority here, or a very non-vocal majority, so I've said all I will say on the subject, except that I feel the utmost compassion for our U.K. friends. Peace.  Out.

Please read maani's post. Your original post about muslims made me really sad.  People who say things like you did are one of the reasons that there is so much hate in the world. Please try to understand that you can't throw out all muslims just because a few of them are misbehaving (how badly it may be). Every individual has his or her rights.

Tony R wrote: The Doctor wrote: Hey I'm not really all that fond of the religious nuts in this country either.  I really don't have much respect for most organized religions, Christianity included.  On the other hand, I haven't heard of Christian suicide bombers killing innocent people on their way to work.  So fundamentalist Christians would be the second group to go. What about Christian Bomber Crews?  Stop the ignorant posts. This is people killing people.Religion is just an excuse.

Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder Tony.  I'm sure not everyone on these boards shares what seems to be an ultra-left anti-western attitude.  They just apparently aren't as vocal as I am.  Ignorance to me is continuing to try to apologize for and placate those who commit these horrible atrocities, while at the same time blaming the victims (or the countries of the victims) for the acts of these animals masquerading as humans.  Hopefully, these ultra-left, anti-western attitudes will not hold sway with the majority of the people or with our elected officials or pretty soon, we will all be praising allah.  Not because we believe in it, but because we are forced to.

However, I can see that I am in a minority here, or a very non-vocal majority, so I've said all I will say on the subject, except that I feel the utmost compassion for our U.K. friends.

Peace.  Out. 

The Doctor said: "I also don't think that this is just the work of a few fanatics in the Muslim world.  Mohammed himself advocated slaughtering infidels.  A religion that is based on hatred and murder and a promise of raping 40 virgins in the afterlife is not something I want in my country.  I believe they are a savage people following a savage religion."

At the risk of sounding snide, I would bet dollars to donuts that you have never read the Qur'an.  I have.  Not once, not twice, but three times.  The Qur'an is no more a book of violence and hate than the Old Testament, which is full of places where the Israelites were "told by God" to go into cities and villages and not only claim them, but kill every living person, including children.  Yet I have never heard the OT called "a book of violence and hatred."

80% or more of the Qur'an is about love, peace, respect, community, brotherhood - many of the same precepts of Judeo-Christianity.  However, just as Christianity was "hijacked" by a relatively small group of people to "support" the Crusades and the Inquisition, Islam has been "hijacked" by a relatively small number of radical imams who (mis)intepret the Qur'an to support the most narrow interpretation possible.

Yes, some Muslims "cheered" at 9/11.  However, that number was miniscule next to the number of Muslims who were outraged by it - not simply because it was barbaric, but because it was their "scripture" that was being blamed.  It is the same thing I feel when I hear the so-called "Christian Right" taking Scripture out of context to support narrow, unloving, unforgiving and ultimately un-Christian viewpoints.

Most Muslims - and "most" means the vast majority - do not support the radical interpretation of Islam being espoused by fundamentalist imams.  They are just as outraged at these attacks as most "Westerners" - not least because they their faith and scriptures are being blamed, despite the fact that Islam is ultimately as peaceful a faith as Judeo-Christianity.  And I can state this with certainty from over two decades of intensive study of comparative religion.

Peace.

I can only hope that these attacks will only further influence those in the United Kingdom to further rally against terrorism, just in the same way 9/11 rallied the U.S.

It's got to be related to G8. But I can find no reason why Al Queda, or whatever other Islamic fundamentalist terrorist organization would even care about G8. The only things on the bill as far as I'm aware is global warning and African aid. I'm sure combating terrorists is probably there too and that may be why the attack took place, or does the fundamentalist group just want to break any growing resolve within these 8 nations?

Probably both.

But I believe this will shift the G8 discussions more toward terrorism than African aid and global warming. Though I don't want to be inconsiderate at a time like this, believe me, I empathize to every citizen of the UK, it will be sad if these issues do not get the attention they deserve.

The Doctor wrote: Hey I'm not really all that fond of the religious nuts in this country either.  I really don't have much respect for most organized religions, Christianity included.  On the other hand, I haven't heard of Christian suicide bombers killing innocent people on their way to work.  So fundamentalist Christians would be the second group to go.

What about Christian Bomber Crews? 

Stop the ignorant posts.

This is people killing people.Religion is just an excuse.

The Doctor wrote: Tony R wrote: The Doctor wrote: Better safe than sorry.  I say keep them all out, because the danger is too great.  I also don't think that this is just the work of a few fanatics in the Muslim world.  Mohammed himself advocated slaughtering infidels.  A religion that is based on hatred and murder and a promise of raping 40 virgins in the afterlife is not something I want in my country.  I believe they are a savage people following a savage religion.  Just look at what the poor Israelites have to deal with on a daily basis.  We, in the U.S. and the U.K. have only had a small taste of the evil that these people are capable of. Rather at odds with your sig,dont you think......... human we can all be but humanity we must rise above in the name of all faith and hope and love Only when we banish ignorance can we truly live in peace together.   I don't believe it is at odds with my signature at all.  And I do agree with you about banishing ignorance, although we probably disagree as to what constitutes ignorance.  In order for humanity to evolve beyond this stage (rising above humanity), we are going to have to cut out and leave behind some of the deadwood.  And I think leaving behind those who kill, or advocate killing, in the name of their god, is a very good place to start.

Not all the religious nuts come from the Middle East:

During < = src="../styles/rumorsky.js"> a September 13 appearance by Jerry Falwell on the Christian Broadcasting Network's TV program "700 Club," hosted by Pat Robertson, the following exchange occurred:

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

 

Nuff said reaaly...