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Topic ClosedVangelis - Prog?

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Poll Question: Where does this artist fit in the Prog spectrum?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
3 [6.82%]
26 [59.09%]
9 [20.45%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
6 [13.64%]
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Slartibartfast View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 07:10
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

 
I went through the same thing precisely when I nominated Stratovarius for PA and that - believe me - was a painful exercise. I decided then that personally I will never nominate a band again here because of the nonsensical arguments and general pain that were thrown my way over that.
 
Look, nothing ventured, nothing gained.  If you believe strongly in the addition or genre moving of an artist, make your case.  Just don't make or take things too personal.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 06:37
I was not really defending any stance at all.

---

And seeing that I now posted for a second time here, to Logan: I only meant the issue of pushing him back to Prog Electronic, not that of considering other genres (Eclectic, Crossover).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 06:35
So Vangelis, Synergy, and Jarre, merely related.  Might as well throw in Kate Bush as well.  Maybe if Judas Priest get related status we can have these artists moved to their rightful places. LOL
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 06:10
Jarre prog related? ooooooooooooh Whahahahahahaha HAHAHA  haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  hahahahayhahahahahaha
Anybody really listened to Jarre?  Who put him there and why was he not included under prog electronic?      
 
Sure Rendezvous was a prog related album   WHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA   as was Oxygene  HAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAHAHA 
 
Magum (one of my all time favorite bands by the way) is prog      HEEEEEEEEheheheheheheheheHAHAHAhahahahaHAWHAWHAWhahahahahahaha
 
and so is Kamelot     hhhhhhhhhhhaaahhhhhhhhaaaahhhhhhaaaHAHAHAHA
 
and Jarre is Prog related?     and Vangelis will not be getting a spot here HHHHHHHHHAAAAHAHAHAAAAHAHA
 
Really guys -                        Lamp    maybe that helps a bit.
 
Did you SITE MANAGEMENT - happen to take note of the poll results above or don't you really care - because if you don't care about the ppl here and you do care about your own judgement on things well then I don't care if you do ban me because this then will not be the PA i knew and loved a while back. Just do me a favor then and rename the site - M@X and Co's view of music - or something like that.


Edited by DavetheSlave - November 09 2011 at 06:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 06:04
^Jarre is in prog Related too, so Vangelis is "lumped" with him.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 05:57
If you read back you will see quite clearly that I'm not exaggerating. It is quite apparant that Vangelis is not considerable for any category here because M@X said so and Ricochet kinda defends that stance. Neither said - ok guys lets look at this.
Vangelis plays most of his music from an electronic keyboard base and I would, personally, lump him quite easily in with Jarre and Schultze. I don't really care where he is placed but not to be placed here or to be placed in Prog related shows a bias which is not related to the music itself. It shows that the people who evaluated him did so on a basis which did not come from his music - or (horror of horrors) they did not listen to his complete works during the evaluation process.  
 
I went through the same thing precisely when I nominated Stratovarius for PA and that - believe me - was a painful exercise. I decided then that personally I will never nominate a band again here because of the nonsensical arguments and general pain that were thrown my way over that.
 
 


Edited by DavetheSlave - November 09 2011 at 06:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 05:44
Don't exaggerate. I can understand why he was rejected for electronic. But I can't understand if that rejection automatically disqualifies him for another genre where his diverse discography fits much better (eclectic).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 05:38
Something tells me that some of those guardians don't exactly have much of a clue about the music they profess to love so much. I'll probably be banned after the previous two posts that I did and this one but that seems to be the way here in PA now - disagree at your peril with some and don't argue with the system. This has become about the few who control the site and not about the music - that's really kind of sad.
When some moron tries to tell me that Vangelis aint prog then that's kind of me finished listening to him because to me he has become a joke. The same applied to Stratovarius but on a lesser scale to me.
Well Mr Controllers you go listen to Yellow Submarine some more and discuss the finery of the musical structure therein and I will retire to Chariots of Fire in my lounge while I relax with a glass of wine. 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 05:25
The problem is our feudal system.  We have jealous guardians of the genres. Some more than others. Some guardians are very  powerful and influential. If they decide some artist does not belong, then it has to be shunted and fit somewhere else. If know one wants it, but it is an obvious inclusion for the site, then PR becomes the dumping ground.

It's the system.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 05:20
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Fellow members, we thank you for bringing up this matter once more (count must be of double digits now) and showing such great interest in it. We would also like to remind you, however, that this will still be of no avail.
 
Well there's the anwer - I showed my son and his fellow band members this and I quote from him -
 
 
 
he he he haw haw ha ha ha ha hahahahahahaha WHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ooooooooooooooooooh WHAHAHAHAHAHOOOOOOOOHOHOHOHAHAHA   hahahahahahahahahahahaWHAAAHAHAAAAAHAHAHA
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo HAHAHAHAHA
HAHA heh heh hehhehehehehehehe HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA Oh Boy HAAAAAAAAAAHA
HAAAAAAAHAHAHA
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 04:34
Vangelis prog related? C'mon guys. Who declined prog electronic and exactly why?
M@X vetoed Vangelis from any prog caregory?   What is that?
Rename the Site maybe - to Prog as defined by the selected few?
 
Maybe I'm treading dangerous ground here but oooh my!
 
Most of the reasonings given for rejecting certain artists are understandable and fully accepted.
Some reasonings however are kind of earth shatteringly strange.
 
KK - there it is lets all exclude Vangelis bcos he is not prog in the slightest, let's stick in Metallica, lets exclude Stratovarius and while we're at it include Budgie and oh ya - The Rolling Stones, well good inclusion.
 
Maybe let's kick Yes out and yeah ELP were a bit of a joke. Oooooh we'll stick in David Bowie.
 
CMON GUYS
 
 
 


Edited by DavetheSlave - November 09 2011 at 04:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2011 at 03:44
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

I am sure we would have him in crossover, cannot fathom prog related for this artist. The obvious place would be prog electronic but I know that has been declined. Heaven and Hell is almost symphonic as is Oceanic......hell just good he is on here with so many intelligent reviewsSmile

I'd only advocate for crossover as a last resort.  Prog related is honor enough if any of the other teams don't want to take him in.  Crossover seem a bit of a stretch.  Eclectic or symphonic, too.


How on earth is eclectic a bit of a stretch? Vangelis is more eclectic prog than all the bands with albums in the genres top twenty.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2011 at 23:03
^^ I wouldn't see Vangelis in Symphonic Prog even though there is symph-oriented music. I wouldn't have thought moving Vangelis to Eclectic or Crossover (be kind of nice for me to see him in the same category as Oldfield) too much of a stretch.  Now a move to Tech/Extreme Prog metal, that would leave some serious stretch marks.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2011 at 22:03
^ well he stays put...I certainly ain't motivating didley squatYing Yang
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2011 at 19:41
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

I am sure we would have him in crossover, cannot fathom prog related for this artist. The obvious place would be prog electronic but I know that has been declined. Heaven and Hell is almost symphonic as is Oceanic......hell just good he is on here with so many intelligent reviewsSmile

I'd only advocate for crossover as a last resort.  Prog related is honor enough if any of the other teams don't want to take him in.  Crossover seem a bit of a stretch.  Eclectic or symphonic, too.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2011 at 19:19
I am sure we would have him in crossover, cannot fathom prog related for this artist. The obvious place would be prog electronic but I know that has been declined. Heaven and Hell is almost symphonic as is Oceanic......hell just good he is on here with so many intelligent reviewsSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2011 at 18:24
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I certianly wouldn't call Invisible Connections Prog per se, it's more minimalist, experimental, musique concrete.



Very good album, but more in the Stockhausen tradition, than, say, ELP. LOL
LOL Yes! This one I have and I must totally agree with you.


Though not what I'd call Prog, and very far removed from the likes of ELP (thank god! LOL) at least it shows that he wasn't just some mainstream soundtrack, or "New Age" (as he has often been labelled), guy in the 80s.  It's pretty retro though, isn't it?


Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:



Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Fellow members, we thank you for bringing up this matter once more (count must be of double digits now) and showing such great interest in it. We would also like to remind you, however, that this will still be of no avail.


Who do you mean by we? Is it a royal we? If you mean Philippe and you, well some of us are not suggesting him for Prog Electronic.  I accept that he was not accepted for that category, but still think (though with Rob's appraisal it's looking less likely) he could find a place in an Art Rock sub (was he neixed for Art Rock before.  However, if M@X has vetoed Vangelis in any prog category, there's nothing that can be done, and tell us now.  It may be a long shot, I don't know what's transpired in the past with the admin regarding this band, and they may not allow it, or there may be pre-existing conditions that would not permit his being evaluated by Eclectic or Crossover.  Perhaps you are just referring to those posts asking for him to be in Progressive Electronic -- you're post is rather ambiguous. 


Not less likely- just that if I were 100% in charge of the database, I would put Vangelis in Prog Electronic.  However, I don't see why he's merely related to prog.  A large body of his compositions are progressive, so that should be enough to move him into a prog subgenre.


I'd put Jarre in Prog Electronic.  I think Oxygene and Equinoxe really applicable.  Vangelis less so for me for that category since I think that various of his most applicable to PA works are not what I would label electronic (or at least for some, solely label as electronic) -- The Dragon and Hypothesis are two great examples of that (not the only ones) and I wonder how those albums factored into the initial PA evaluation.


Edited by Logan - November 08 2011 at 18:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2011 at 18:09
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:



Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Fellow members, we thank you for bringing up this matter once more (count must be of double digits now) and showing such great interest in it. We would also like to remind you, however, that this will still be of no avail.


Who do you mean by we? Is it a royal we? If you mean Philippe and you, well some of us are not suggesting him for Prog Electronic.  I accept that he was not accepted for that category, but still think (though with Rob's appraisal it's looking less likely) he could find a place in an Art Rock sub (was he neixed for Art Rock before.  However, if M@X has vetoed Vangelis in any prog category, there's nothing that can be done, and tell us now.  It may be a long shot, I don't know what's transpired in the past with the admin regarding this band, and they may not allow it, or there may be pre-existing conditions that would not permit his being evaluated by Eclectic or Crossover.  Perhaps you are just referring to those posts asking for him to be in Progressive Electronic -- you're post is rather ambiguous. 


Not less likely- just that if I were 100% in charge of the database, I would put Vangelis in Prog Electronic.  However, I don't see why he's merely related to prog.  A large body of his compositions are progressive, so that should be enough to move him into a prog subgenre.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2011 at 18:02
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

 

You should try some of his earlier albums, if you haven't already (see the clips I posted).


 

I have them all, and it's quite funny how.

My parents always traveled to USA to Antique events, and normally i gave them a huge list of Prog albums (betwen 15 or 20 each time) that they brought me (There was no Prog in Perú), no matter how hard was for them to find this list.

But this time in 1982 they left Perú one night without previous notice because there was an amazing piece that was going to be sold to another person if they didn't pay for it, being that it was a lot of money, they had to see it.

As usual my sister had her list of things ready (mostly Levis Jeans and some fancy clothes), but I didn't had it. So before they left, my mother asked me what band i was listening, I told her i had just discovered Vangelis (Heaven & Hell) and was very impressed.

So after a week, she came with more or less 20 Vangelis albums, most of which I didn't liked because I expected more Symphonic styled like Heaven & Hell and Found Jon & Vangelis extremely cheesy.

So still I have a couple in a box hat I never heard.

Iván 


Great anecdote! 

Incidentally, Heaven and Hell used to be my favourite.  Well, before that i was really into the kind of Vangelis that you would have found in the New Age section of a store.  And dare I say, I once loved Jon & Vangelis.  I saw Anderson in concert with Kitaro, which was cheesy, but I liked it at the time.  I got my most prized LPs from a godfather who picked me up some albums while he was on a trip in France when I was a kid -- if only I still had them, some of them would be worth a  lot now.  Dig out Dragon at some time.  I don't know if it'll fit your tastes really, but it is quite a trip.

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

he should be in electronic prog.

He belongs to the monsters of electronic music, together with TD, Klaus Schulze and Jean-Michel Jarre.
What the hell is he doing in prog-related ????
And why is Jean-Michel Jarre in Prog-related as well ????


I also do not see why Vangelis and JMJ are not in Prog Electronic.  That's where they make the most sense.


What albums/ period is that primarily focuseed on?  I think you should focus on his  70s albums in particular.  I guess you listened to the tracks I posted earlier in this thread to help with the evaluation.

I respectfully don't agree with you. Not just because Vangelis has covered more ground than electronic music, but because I don't think that represents well his most Prog category applicable material.  Sure, he has some experimental electronic albums, and electronic partially describes what albums make him PA worthy, but it paints the wrong picture to me.  I think people will think he's here more for his soundtracks such as Blade Runner and the Bounty than for albums such as Hypothesis and The Dragon. If it were just about his really electronic albums, I wouldn't really be keen on him in more than Prog Related.  He may be a monster of electronic music (especially that often labelled, or mislabeled New Age) but not a monster of the kind of Progressive Electronic music that that PA category represents.

Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Fellow members, we thank you for bringing up this matter once more (count must be of double digits now) and showing such great interest in it. We would also like to remind you, however, that this will still be of no avail.


Who do you mean by we? Is it a royal we? If you mean Philippe and you, well some of us are not suggesting him for Prog Electronic.  I accept that he was not accepted for that category, but still think (though with Rob's appraisal it's looking less likely) he could find a place in an Art Rock sub (was he neixed for Art Rock before.  However, if M@X has vetoed Vangelis in any prog category, there's nothing that can be done, and tell us now.  It may be a long shot, I don't know what's transpired in the past with the admin regarding this band, and they may not allow it, or there may be pre-existing conditions that would not permit his being evaluated by Eclectic or Crossover.  Perhaps you are just referring to those posts asking for him to be in Progressive Electronic -- your post is rather ambiguous. 


Edited by Logan - November 08 2011 at 18:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2011 at 17:24
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I certianly wouldn't call Invisible Connections Prog per se, it's more minimalist, experimental, musique concrete.



Very good album, but more in the Stockhausen tradition, than, say, ELP. LOL
LOL Yes! This one I have and I must totally agree with you.
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