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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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 Posted: November 05 2011 at 12:33 |
 Andyman1125 wrote:
Isn't it enough to say that they were rejected?  |
Highly recommended if you'd much rather people didn't participate in discussions and just stayed away from the forums. Sorry if that sounds brusque, but I hope you do realize the import of what you are saying.
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Andy Webb
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: June 04 2010
Location: Terria
Status: Offline
Points: 13298
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 12:28 |
Isn't it enough to say that they were rejected?
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Rune2000
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 23 2004
Location: STHLM, Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 1833
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:53 |
Chris S wrote:
Rune2000 - I think it is kind of unfair ruling the site is close minded because of non inclusion of some bands. Remember the site evolves too, we have seen Budgie, Golden Earring to name a few listed in Prog related over time. Maybe it is time for you to send a new justification to Admin. I have not read all the threads, but considering the multitude of bands in the Prog Metal genre, what was the PMT's reason for rejection? |
I agree that PA has been evolving over the years and quite a few of my favorites like Sparks, Talking Heads/David Byrne, David Bowie and Yngwie Malmsteen have been added over the years. So I see it more as a matter of time before JP finally gets added. I'm just tired of people simply saying No without giving a single motivation behind their decision. I have not been a part of the PMT long enough to know the reasons behind the rejection of JP. Personally, I don't see them in the PM sub-genre due to the fact that the movement didn't really start before the late '80s, thus making JP more of a Proto-PM kind of act together with many others that have already been added under Prog Related moniker.
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Rune2000
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 23 2004
Location: STHLM, Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 1833
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:47 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Rune2000 wrote:
What point? Please elaborate! 
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The point that anyone disagreeing to their inclusion is considered closed minded and in some way not seeing the bigger picture. That they are trying to stifle PA even.
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No, because this is how a narrow minded individual would approach a debate. I thought that we went past the stereotypes by this point.  First off, please tell us about your knowledge of JP and their music. Do you own or have you heard any of their albums, outside of the singles? Why do you not consider them to be in the same short list consisting of bands like Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden? Is it, for example, because their influence is not as widespread or because they made a few very commercial albums in the '80s and thus deviated from the progressive frame of mind? Last and most important; is there a specific paragraph of the prog related criteria that you think that Judas Priest doesn't qualify under? ...plus any other information that you would like to share with us. 
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:45 |
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It's not about if X, then Y. JP are one of the biggest influences on metal and ought to be here anyway. On the other hand, recognizing Maiden's role but not JP reeks of the size queen syndrome (refer Textbook's thread).
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:44 |
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I appreciate Olav's point, but I don't think that should be the primary consideration for admissions. Our evaluations should be based solely on the music and how it relates to our genre definitions, not how others view the site, or wide open considerations as to the site's "direction." My two cents.
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:41 |
JP has been put forward to Admin a couple of times and, I think, rejected for Prog Related. I would prefer to see them in the PMetal genre IMHO but have been rejected there too. Rune2000 - I think it is kind of unfair ruling the site is close minded because of non inclusion of some bands. Remember the site evolves too, we have seen Budgie, Golden Earring to name a few listed in Prog related over time. Maybe it is time for you to send a new justification to Admin. I have not read all the threads, but considering the multitude of bands in the Prog Metal genre, what was the PMT's reason for rejection? Personally I think PA have it wrong to not have JP on here when Iron Maiden are ( X & Y....i know, don't crucify me), but maybe they will get on eventually.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Points: 32995
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:26 |
Rune2000 wrote:
What point? Please elaborate!
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The point that anyone disagreeing to their inclusion is considered closed minded and in some way not seeing the bigger picture. That they are trying to stifle PA even.
Edited by Snow Dog - November 05 2011 at 11:27
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Rune2000
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 23 2004
Location: STHLM, Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 1833
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:20 |
What point? Please elaborate!
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Points: 32995
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:18 |
Rune2000 wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Its great to see that those opposed to Priests inclusion are considered "close minded". Must be obvious that their inclusion has to be the right thing. So silly of me to miss that. So welcome aboard Halford and friends. Welcome all. |
Your sarcasm is not really helping anyone. 
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Sorry. But my point has been made. Whatever Admin decide I'll live with of course.
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Rune2000
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 23 2004
Location: STHLM, Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 1833
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:14 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Its great to see that those opposed to Priests inclusion are considered "close minded". Must be obvious that their inclusion has to be the right thing. So silly of me to miss that. So welcome aboard Halford and friends. Welcome all. |
Your sarcasm is not really helping anyone. What's even worth is that you have not expanded on your thoughts outside of that one sentence on the first page. I would love to hear your thoughts!
Edited by Rune2000 - November 05 2011 at 11:18
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 11:07 |
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Its great to see that those opposed to Priests inclusion are considered "close minded". Must be obvious that their inclusion has to be the right thing. So silly of me to miss that. So welcome aboard Halford and friends. Welcome all.
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Marty McFly
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 3968
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 10:55 |
^ Well, you're from Prog Metal team, having a bit of an open mind is needed there. After all, this is Rock site. I am from Crossover team, open mind is necessary here as well. We have some dealings with Pop you know :-D
And well said Olav. That is the group of people I was referring to in my previous post.
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my
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Rune2000
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 23 2004
Location: STHLM, Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 1833
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 09:39 |
SouthSideoftheSky wrote:
Rune2000 wrote:
I definitely support the idea |
So, would you like to champion the band before the Admin team? Or should we first make some kind of petition among special collaborators and reviewers?
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Sorry for the late response...  I don't feel that I have the qualifications to headline such an ambitious project. Having said that, you have my full support and I would like to help out in whatever way I can. Some remarks on this forum has shown me just how narrow minded some of the people are when it comes to progressive music. Furthermore ProgArchives is not suppose to be a place dedicated exclusively to the hard core prog fans. If we keep up this conservatory frame of mind this site will pretty much become a museum within the next 10 or so years.  I'm all for renewing the enthusiasm for progressive music outside it's obvious boundaries and attracting new listeners to the music that we cherish. I say adding Judas Priest is one of there moves.
Edited by Rune2000 - November 05 2011 at 11:03
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 09:10 |
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8138
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 07:50 |
SouthSideoftheSky wrote:
Unfortunately, Judas Priest are best known for their simplistic 80’s hits like Breakin’ |
this song is from one of their best albums, and it is a very good song !
Seriously, yes, Judas Priest played proggy music in the seventies, Rocka Rolla is bluesy hard-prog, Sad Wings is hard-prog, with sin after sin and stained class the proggy touch is less present but still they could be regarded as proto-prog metal (by prog-metal I refer to bands like Queensrÿche or Crimson Glory). With British Steel, they entered the world of glam metal. Painkiller marked a return to form and a surprise, since it not blended traditional heavy metal with thrash metal.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 28 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 11401
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 07:36 |
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A debate that concerns what people think should be the primary direction of this site.
Where one part prefers this site to be a source for those already intimately familiar with prog, a closed community to cater for the chosen few.
The other point of view is that the site should be more liberal and open, a source for curious music fans to get the chance to discover what this is all about. Where the inclusion of proggy well known artists and a liberal point of view are the main tools for the site to function in just that manner.
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com
My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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SouthSideoftheSky
Special Collaborator
Symphonic Team
Joined: June 29 2008
Location: Close To The...
Status: Offline
Points: 1946
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Posted: November 05 2011 at 05:40 |
The Miracle wrote:
Sorry if I'm being too cynical - it's nothing personal. I really enjoy your reviews, by the way. |
Thank you! I did not mean to be rude.
The Miracle wrote:
no one
will come to Prog Archives to research information on Judas Priest or to
discover some classic heavy metal. |
Hmm, that is of course correct, but you're getting it entirely backwards. These band constitute an important gateway to "genuine" Prog. That's how it all started for me, and many other Prog fans. If it wasn't for bands like Queen, Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, I would most probably never have found my way to bands like Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc., and I would probably never have found my way to Prog Archives.
Many people don't know what Prog is and the music of Prog related bands like those above is a great way to introduce people to "real" Prog music and to the site.
The Miracle wrote:
I think PA should be about finding new prog music and giving artists who need it a chance to be found. These super-popular prog-related bands are definitely in no need of promotion to any audience, so that argument has little merit. |
I agree that PA should be (primarily) about finding new Prog music and not about promoting "super-popular" Prog-related bands. But one way of doing the former is exactly by associating it with something that the uninitiated already knows and likes.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: November 04 2011 at 21:04 |
The Miracle wrote:
That's why I think we shouldn't deny prog fans the pleasure of having a site devoted "exclusively" to what is traditionally known as prog rock, as its title implies. |
Yes, and let's start by removing prog metal then from the database and alienating a huge section of users. Prog has changed and it's inherent in its very nature that it would.
The Miracle wrote:
Because no one
will come to Prog Archives to research information on Judas Priest or to
discover some classic heavy metal. |
And nobody would also come to prog archives to research info on LZ or Queen. Or Nightwish for that matter.  I completely agree that prog related is not a good idea but if it's going to be part of the database, let's have some consistency.
The Miracle wrote:
You can discuss their relationship to prog on MMA or another metal site. |
Same thing that can be done for Sabbath, Rainbow, Purple as well. My point is JP belongs in that circle, so it's not a question of just suggesting any old heavy metal band. JP are one of its pillars and certainly reflected its more 'sophisticated' side in the 70s.
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
Status: Offline
Points: 28427
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Posted: November 04 2011 at 18:41 |
Marty McFly wrote:
^ That's a certainly bad idea, as is the one that doesn't show them in Top 100. I will comply to most of rules here on PA, but this is complete unfairness.
I know there is more collabs that approve how is this now, but it simply doesn't feel right. After all the problems that band had to get through to even be in Prog-related, they aren't even shown in charts. My solution would be to include them in Top 100 and let the masses (us and members) speak who deserves to be in Top 100, not to act like Prog Related and Proto-Prog doesn't exist. |
Sorry Marty, can't agree there. The band didn't have any problems getting into Prog-related. Some collabs did. This is Prog Archives so Prog Related and Proto-Prog are supplemental material here to provide the "full picture", but they're not the main focus of the site. And that's how I'd like to keep it.
Edited by The Miracle - November 04 2011 at 20:35
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