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TODDLER 
Forum Senior Member 
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
 Posted: September 30 2013 at 19:23 |
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: September 30 2013 at 13:22 |
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Toddler,
Insightful posts, thanks for posting. |
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: September 30 2013 at 12:47 |
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It was really interesting to meet so many incredible progressive musicians ..on the road..in the 70's. It was pretty intimidating performing with older N.Y. based musicians. At that point I was studing Classical guitar ..on the road, off the road, had a handful of pieces mastered, where these particular musicians were 20 years ahead of me regarding their overall performance on an instrument professionally. I remember working with keyboardists who studied at Julliard, had a fully developed Classical body within them and buying mellotrons, synths, strings.. to imitate the sounds of Vangelis, Tony Banks, Keith Emerson, Rick Wakeman.etc and they were working all the time...not weekends..but 6 nighters. playing Jethro Tull, ELP, Genesis whatever?..to a full complete packed house on the east coast during a weekday. Really? I can't believe that even existed when I ponder over what is relevant today. That sounds like a fairytale doesn't it? Bands like SIRE...setting up their gear at the Penalty Box in Cherry Hill N.J. IN 1978...the place is incredibly huge and it's mobbed with people waiting to see SIRE..(a prog cover band)....they enter the stage and play "Close To The Edge" in it's entirety while kids are drinking beer, smoking cigarettes, and completely in heaven. We were opening for the band playing Jethro Tull , Genesis, and Led Zeppelin. My bassist at the time doubled on flute, had a Classically trained voice and no doubt the crowd liked us..however..when SIRE played ..we all sat in the dressing room with our pathetic heads down and that was when we awoke to the realization that we had to get better.
And as I say...it was extremely different back then regarding the entire thought process a musician uses to benefit their career. This was 1978..when the record companies had already put their plan into motion. Prog was slowly on it's way out. I became very confused about it because I DID..see that it wasn't being played as much on the radio..however in 78' the theatres and clubs I performed in were packed to see Prog. It hadn't sizzled out completely..where upon it had suffered a crash. That ultimate crash down of any particular business in America where it is no longer possible for the businessman to pick himself up again without changing direction.
Prog went to hell before my eyes and yes, I was on the road watching it happen as a way of life. It was painful to see many of the bands crumble from lack of promotion. But in 78' when Nektar played theatres and clubs..the house was always full. It was confusing because the business was booming on the theatre/club scale ..yet..parcially Disco and the Punk movement gained the interest of the public creating competition for the Prog world. I remember playing the "Glam Rock" original circuit bookings when I was a teen. The New York Dolls and a bunch of unknowns with up and coming record deals. We were about to be signed with Warner Brothers who had heard our original demo . We were to be flown to California to re-record the music in a professional studio provided by the Warner Brothers team. I had 2 managers. The 1 manager who landed the deal with Warners was fired by the useless manager who in return fired me for getting married. It was in a contract we signed..that none of us could be married. We were escorted by road team to a dressing room where our faces were fixed up like dolly's. We were escorted to the stage by bodyguards holding flashlights. It was then I decided to join a Progressive Rock cover band and also begin writing original music to filter through with the band as well.
By 1982 , on the east coast..there were only a handful of Prog cover bands...starting out with covers and slipping in originals and then fully converting to original...and since the money was great playing covers, it was a easy method of investing in your original career or gaining the interest of managers who invested. After witnessing less attention given to Popular Prog bands ..Prog cover bands bailed out. Less and less people coming out..a dying art. The Prog scene went underground with less chances of bands like Univers Zero or Pulsar of ever visiting America.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: September 30 2013 at 10:36 |
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A really interesting time of my life was when I first heard Jimi Hendrix. Guitar buddies on the block were endlessly having difficulties playing his solos. The Hendrix unorthodox guitar methods didn't "catch on" to anyone very guickly No one to my knowledge had transcribed and produced sheet music that was accurate and also used symbols for his sometimes awkward thumb positions. Playing with the thumb is a method ..sometimes considered primitive and in some cases of less value to traditional music achievement according to a certain society class of people. AND...so ..being a young musician in the early 70's that was in the air and pressured on me . I think that experience is a far cry from what is evident in the world today.The style wasn't catching on to the kids in my age group. Hendrix would beautifully produce sounds of bombs, rockets, haunting sirens, police car sirens and no one else in the "Rock World" was doing that at the time and so we were all guitar students that were very much freaked out over this realization. Hendrix was influenced by Buddy Guy and to point it directly, in the department of single note phrasing. But...Hendrix was taking that influence and doing something else with it. His vibrato was slow and hypnotic like Dave Gilmour or Andrew Latimer. His phrasing in a particular section of "1983 A Merman...from Electric Ladyland ...that features a clean tone guitar sound is based on phrasing around an Asian mode. I'm not sure what it is..but I've never heard anyone phrase like that. Before he died ..he was jamming with Progressive Rock musicians in Europe. He went to see King Crimson, he worked with Bo Hannson who wrote "Tax Free" for him. Steve Hillage is Hendrix influenced. Hendrix influenced something other than guitar playing. He was stuck in the "Rock Guitar Hero World" , didn't like it, and still managed to leave an overall influence on how to change "Rock Music" Originally he worked with famous "Soul" bands'..which that style of soulful funky guitar playing is Jazz oriented and sometimes complicated to master with feel. So..Hendrix had diversity in his background prior to becoming the Jimi Hendrix that everyone loved. He molded all of his teachings from the road, all the styles ..and formed a new style of Rock music and Rock guitar playing. It took a while for east coast American musicians to catch on..for some reason..I don't know? This was in the early 70's when kids on the east coast were trying to play like Hendrix..teenagers who wanted to hit the road. Once I got on the road, I saw some outstanding guitarists from N.Y. who understood the background to anything thrown in their face. Such as manuscript or depending on their ear to back a professional vocalist. They felt that Hendrix was a bit unorthodox. It took a schooled guitarist to figure out what Hendrix was doing then.
There was no one else like him. This was the twilight zone , years before anyone imitated him..for example..Robin Trower..who had taken tips from Hendrix and of course Stephen Stills who took lessons from Hendrix years earlier..But..no one could truly emulate his playing. Some people thought Hendrix was mentally ill. My parents for example. He toyed with the guitar where people like Eric Clapton were more traditional. It was very strange living in the 60's and 70's , studying guitar, and being surrounded by a vast amount of people trying to figure out what Jimi Hendrix was doing on the guitar. I feel very old because of that memory. Welcome to the rest home. Edited by TODDLER - September 30 2013 at 10:49 |
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: September 30 2013 at 09:33 |
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Triumvirat were on "In Concert" , Deep Purple and ELP on California Jam were hilarious and contained all of those "Old School" Rock tatics. The kind that Jack Black would have made a reference to on the movie "School Of Rock". Emerson had his flying piano bit and rubbing his ribbon controller in a place where the sun doesn't shine. Ritchie Blackmore had his goons set the stage on fire, plus he busted up the front of an "ABC" camera because...he was having a "hissy fit" over having to go on stage prior to sundown ..when the band had originally agreed to enter the stage AT sundown. At first the crew knocked on the door of Blackmore's dressing room and said "C'mon, lets go..you're on!". Blackmore refused to go on and then they told him that if he didn't get on stage,...they were going to bring in the local sheriff's to have him arrested.
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 8615 |
Posted: September 28 2013 at 10:34 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 28 2013 at 09:09 |
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What?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: September 28 2013 at 08:54 |
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I don't know what mainstream radio programming for the evenings is like THESE days in the UK. Down here, evenings is all out top 40 pop interspersed with retro. That is also down to the fact that a vast majority of music listeners in the country are simply not interested in offbeat stuff anyway, so playing them on the radio serves no purpose. It's better to cater to same old same old for them.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: September 28 2013 at 08:52 |
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^^^ Interesting...I did hear Rush, DP and JT for the first time on a compilation tape that I got somewhere during the dying throes of the tape as a popular music format. Yes, VA or compilations are not much in favour anymore but that may also be because the internet has changed the pattern of distribution of music. Even in the 90s, the greatest hits was not a bad way to explore an artist or genre for the first time before digging deep into the catalogue simply because there were not too many other ways (barring radio or MTV, that is) to actually get to listen to an artist.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 28 2013 at 08:35 |
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1. The radio - eventhough all of day-time radio was given over to a strict Top-40 playlist (and at that time we had no official commercial radio in the UK - it was either the BBC, pirate radio or in the evenings Radio Luxembourg - they were all Top-40 oriented), the evening and nighttime programming was more eclectic and varied. I first heard Tangerine Dream, Van der Graaf Generator, Tyranasaurus Rex and Frank Zappa on late-night radio. All those DJs, including John Peel and Annie Nightingale would later discard and disapprove of Prog, but they didn't in the early 70s - they pioneered and promoted it (along with their careers I cynically add). Even at its peak, progressive rock never featured on day-time Top-40 programming, even when tracks by Family or Jethro Tull were in the Top-40. (the BBC had this strange concept of the quintessential day-time listener - which was the stay-at-home housewife, and "she" would never approve of that kind of thing...)
2. The rock press - the weekly rock press in the UK (Melody Maker, New Musical Express and Sounds) formed a very important part in informing the eager public with the latest music, and that included underground and progressive music. The journo's who later villified Prog were avid supporters of the scene at the time (again career progression and self-important self-promotion of those journalists clouds the issue towards the end of the decade). While you couldn't actually hear any music that way, it brought those artists to your attention so when you saw it in a record shop you would give it a listen. I first noticed The Enid by a short 100 word review in Melody maker.
3. The Record Shop and the Listening Booth - all record shops played music while you shopped and they would occasionally be playing something progressive if it suited them, most (I think actually, all) had listening booths or just a headphones so you could listen to an album before you bought it. Often a listening booth would be crowded with kids all listening to the same tracks after school untill the shop assistant decided you'd had enough and kicked you out. I first heard H to He, Le Orme and Seventh Wave's Things to Come in a listening booth.
4. School Friends and Sharing - sharing music is as old as music, even before the popularity of the C90 cassette or dig it all downloads we shared music between us, in the playground, in the common room, on the bus journey home albums would be poured over, discussed, raved about and shared. I would guess that most of the music I heard and subsequently bought was the result of a friend lending me the album - I got into White Noise, TONTO, Queen, Floyd, Yes, PFM and Hendrix this way.
5. Label Samplers, Budget releases and Greatest Hits - now-a-days we tend to be dismissive of Various Artists, Budget proce re-releases and Greatest Hits releases but in the 70s they were a valuable way of getting to hear new music because they were cheap and contained several artists that you'd never hear any other way. Budget releases such as Genesis Live, The Faust Tapes, Can Unlimited, Phallus Dei and Camenbert Electrique were often the first time many of us had experienced these bands and Label Samplers such as Nice Enough To Eat, "V", The Age of Atlantic or Bumpers introduced us to bands who were stable-mates of artists we already liked.
There was a sixth way, but that didn't figure quite as highly on the day-to-day side, and that was live gigs, mostly because you usually went to a gig because you already had the album - it was rare to pick-up on a new band because they were playing support to someone you already liked.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: September 28 2013 at 06:17 |
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I experienced something interesting today which made me wonder how some of you folks on this forum who were around in the 70s accessed the music of the great prog rock bands at that time. The only 'international music' radio station (read 'Western rock and pop') in my city thinks it is a great idea to play back the American Top 40 shows of various dates again. Maybe some retro-cum-trivia enthusiasts like that, wouldn't know. But today I stumbled on this broadcast in the middle of a long drive. In the 40 minutes or so that I got to listen to it before I reached home, it got from no. 40 to no. 33. The only song that grabbed me at all of those was ostensibly no. 40 - ABBA's Fernando. I know that is not exactly a favourite of prog rockers and that song is not even one of those that I like of the group. But the others were (or at least felt so to me) utterly generic and made no impression on me. In other words, exactly mirroring my experience when I listen to the same radio station play the top hits of these days. It also reminded me of Dean's many essays on the subject attempting to demolish the myth of the 70s.
 This was some week in 1976 but it led me to wonder exactly how many weeks in the 70s as such would have been filled with amazing Top 40 music. I guess you must have known people who liked prog rock or were introduced to magazines or radio stations that did cover prog rock because the top 40 wouldn't be a very good guide for anybody who is easily put off by generic pop music.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: September 28 2013 at 06:11 |
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7264 |
Posted: September 27 2013 at 22:06 |
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No, this is true American history! I remember some of this in Chicago during the 1960's and 1970's, but I didn't get as close to it as Toddler did. There was a real paranoia in the USA regarding Satanism, to the point that it was the subject of a rather amazing episode of "The Alfred Hitchcock Hour" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0394086/ I watched that on Hulu a couple of years ago and was totally creeped out!! "Rosemary's Baby" also came out of that time, and music like "Black Mass" by Lucifer, "Lucifer's Friend" etc. Come, come, come to the Sabbat! Come to the Sabbat, Satan's there!
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20623 |
Posted: September 27 2013 at 20:53 |
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Did I accidentally stumble into the Twilight Zone or is this the false memory thread...?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 27 2013 at 17:20 |
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"It's so big you gotta grin to get it in..."
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: September 27 2013 at 16:11 |
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In the early 70's I was subjected/exposed to disturbing realities in my hometown. The idea for youths to form Satan cults was widespread and also related to isolated tragic events across the U.S. for decades. If bodies were discovered by the police and connected to a ritual practiced by a group of youths, it would hit the newspapers, the news on T.V., the accused were incarcerated and it was basically summed up as a common psychological pattern produced by teenagers who already had bad upbringing or mental problems that had never been properly addressed. For many years...music was to blame. Music and lyrics. From experience...I cannot ever believe that all of this stems from the youth as a whole to take it upon themselves to buy their little costumes of black hooded cloaks and perform rituals all on their own.
Clearly the people who programmed my childhood friends had lots and lots of money. They had prominent positions in the community and programmed kids my age who were completely and mentally unstable. Kids who fooled about with LSD because they had desires to kill themselves. Private desires that is. They had money and power to control the sect and they were not by any means young. Much of this is written as conspiracy theories by individuals today and many skeptics find it laughable. I don't believe everything is true in publication because writers are spicing it up to make a living..but nevertheless it does exist. I know....if I say so right? But seriously...there is truth to it. They are more organized than "lost boy" youths and they will kill you if they have to..and they will NOT leave marks for federal officers to discover. That's what I experienced in the early 70's and every Halloween I think about it.
Most or even all newspaper articles on Vineland N.J. were wiped clean from the internet in the last 10 years. Why..I don't know? One in particular was out of a Miami newspaper. It may have been called "The Miami Times" but I checked it out and it stated that in 1971 , Pastor Harry Snook (RIP), deprogrammed a total of 90 teenage devil worshippers in Vineland. That article sticks more to the truth of the tragic events in the town and leaves room for detailed observation on the corruption there. The actual sect was interrogated with little results of conviction. The only choice Vineland and it's surrounding towns had was to set up Christian stations/housing to convert the kids. The hesitation to push the incidents further for investigation was ruled out in court by a judge..and this was unfortunately after the entire police force conducted a 2 year investigation which involved scoping out all the vast wooded areas, harassing members of the Chestnut Assembly of God Church and the interrogation of many teenage witnesses. According to investigators..the members of the church were leading the life of duel personalities, pretending to be Christians ..but actually belonging to a Satan worshippers sect and programming teenagers. High society members who had revolted against "The Church of Satan" on the west coast had settled in Vineland to form their own sect to practice rituals that were forbidden by Anton himself. I know this all too well from experience...however it was printed on Christian websites as far back as 2004...and then deleted. Why? I don't know? It might make a good movie or book..but without the hokey or corny representation witchcraft and devil worship is often given in Hollywood. But maybe I place emphasis on this because I truly DO NOT believe in the supernatural. I was scared between 1966 and 1971 and shortly after 71' I was weary about continuing to live there. A person recently contacted me who lives in California and lived through the darkworld in Vineland. There are things they do not understand about their past and think that I can help them.  Edited by TODDLER - September 27 2013 at 18:19 |
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: September 27 2013 at 15:47 |
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silverpot
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: March 19 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 841 |
Posted: September 27 2013 at 13:43 |
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This is really interesting since those British Invasion bands were inspired by American Blues and Rock. And Hendrix had to go to London to be recognized as the great talent that he was. This proves how important cultural mixing is. |
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: September 27 2013 at 12:41 |
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They were still big in the early 80s |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 27 2013 at 12:32 |
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What has Disco Ever Done For Us? 
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What was it like in the 60's and 70's?
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Surrealist wrote: